Peter King:

Hi. This is Peter King. And this is the PK Podcast Experience. I have a number of interviews that I want to publish. And the very first one that I'd like to share with you is an interview that I did with Simon Sinek a few years ago. Simon Sinek is the author of a book called Start With Why. He's also the Ted Talk speaker for a talk that he gave, also conveniently called Start With Why. Or, actually, it was called How Leaders Inspire Others to Take Action. But he talked about starting with why, starting with purpose.

I chose this as my first podcast release, because it all starts with why. It does start with purpose. Purpose is the fuel to get you to your destination, to your dream, to your vision. So with that, I am going to turn it over here. This is my interview with Simon Sinek. Thanks for listening.

All right. Simon Sinek. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Simon Sinek:

My pleasure.

Peter King:

Appreciate it. Simon is the author of Start With Why. Simon really started to blossom in the business community after his Ted Talk about how leaders inspire others to take action. So, Simon, in that video, I saw this video about a year and a half ago, it really had a profound impact on me because of the way that you articulated inspiration, and why we do what we do. Tell us a little bit about what you call the Golden Circle.

Simon Sinek:

Sure. A few years ago I made a stark discovery that sort of changed my view on how business works and why people do what they do. I learned that every single organization on the planet, even our own careers, always functions on three levels, the same three levels: what we do, how we do it, and why we do it. Those are things that I usually articulate in a bullseye: why, how, and what. It's this naturally occurring pattern that exists in biology, so it's nothing to do with my opinion, which is the coolest thing, but it explains how the great leaders, everything from Apple to Martin Luther King, how they inspire.

In a nutshell, every single one of us knows what we do. These are the products we sell, the services we offer. Some know how we do it, whether you call it your differentiating value proposition, or your proprietary process. But very, very few of us can clearly articulate why we do what we do. And by why, I don't mean to make money. That's a result. By why I mean what's your purpose, what's your cause, what's your belief? So it's the rest of us that tell people what we do and how we're different, and try and convince people to choose us over the competition. But it's those leaders and those organizations with the capacity to inspire that don't start with what they do. They start with why they do it. They tell you why they get out of bed in the morning, why the company even exists in the first place. Then, they tell you how they go about advancing that cause. Then, their products or services simply serve as proof of that purpose.

So let's talk about me, right? Here's an example. Before I learned about this Golden Circle, people would say, "Hey, Simon," your most dreaded question in the world, "What do you do?" And I would say, "Oh, I'm a marketing consultant." And I would say how I did it. I'd say, "Well, I [inaudible 00:03:19] really great clients, and I take sort of a different perspective from everybody else, and I work with people like ABC Sports, and AOL, and Microsoft, and companies like that. We do big companies and small companies. We do all kinds of marketing: internal and external." It's the same rigamarole that you've heard 1,000 times. It doesn't even sound special. But this is why we keep talking: to try and make it sound more special. We think that if we throw more spaghetti against the wall some of it will stick.

Then, I learned about this thing called the why. And I literally don't even talk about what I do. I just talk about what I believe. And so now when somebody says, "What do you do?" I say, "I teach leaders and organizations how to inspire people. And the way I go about that is by using this little tool that I call the Golden Circle, which is grounded in the biology of human decision making. And I get to teach, or write, or speak. And it doesn't really matter what I do. What matters is that everything I do is devoted to inspiring people to do what inspires them. And the great part is, I've got to work with all kinds of big companies, and small companies, and work in all kinds of areas. But I'm completely focused on inspiring people to do what inspires them."

And it's a completely different pitch, you see? Because now, anybody who believes in this concept of inspiration or people immediately perks up. Where, the old way, it's like you have to try and say one thing that lands, that maybe they're interested in. Now, they don't care what companies I mention. They don't even care. People say, "How do I hire you?" I'm like, "Well, I don't work with people very often." So you start to generate demand where you don't even have a product. It's all about knowing. But before you start with why you do what you do, you have to know why you know what you do. So that's the little tricky bit.

Peter King:

It is. I opened this up to my community and I asked, I said, "Hey, I'm going to be speaking with Simon. What questions do you have?" And one of the interesting questions that I got was, which you started to lead into a little bit, which is, "Why does why even matter?" What's your response to that?

Simon Sinek:

It's such a good question. It's such an obvious question that rarely gets asked, to be honest. Why matters at a very fundamental, biological, and anthropological level. The way the human brain makes decisions corresponds precisely with this little idea called the Golden Circle. Our neocortex, which is our homo sapien brain, our newest brain, is responsible for all of our rational and analytical thought and language. That's the what level. Right? Whereas the limbic brain, which corresponds with the other two levels is responsible for all of our feelings, like trust and loyalty. It's also responsible for all human behavior, all decision, and has no capacity for language.

So why why matters at a biological level is, yes, people can understand vast amounts of complicated information, like facts, and figures, and features, and benefits, and data, and information, and numbers, and performance, and all of that stuff. Yes, we can understand vast amounts of it. It just doesn't drive behavior. When we talk directly about the why, we're talking directly to the behavior center of the brain, and it drives [inaudible 00:06:18] behavior, it inspires us, [inaudible 00:06:22], and then we rationalize that behavior later, because the part of the brain that controls decision making doesn't control language. This is where [inaudible 00:06:28] gut decisions come from. Right? Part of your stomach that controls decision making. It's not in your blood, or bones, and you're not following your heart.

The reason we say, "It just feels right." Is because the part of the brain that controls feelings also controls decision making, but we can't put it into words, why, when we ignore all the data, this one feels better. "Why?" "I don't know. It just feels right. You know?" That's the biological reason why why matters. The anthropological reason why why matters is because we're social animals. Our very survival depends on our ability to form communities. Our very survival depends on our ability to surround ourselves with people who believe what we believe. Because when we're surround by people who believe what we believe, trust emerges, this feeling. Trust is a feeling. It's a human experience. And trust emerges. And when we're in an environment, when we're in a community, when we're in a neighborhood, when we're in a company where we trust them and they trust us, we're more willing to take risks, we're more willing to explore, we're more willing to experiment with the confidence that if we turn our backs, go away, or fall over, someone will watch our backs, watch our stuff, or help us up.

In other words, we're more likely to survive. Our very survival, our very sense of joy, and happiness, and contentment and safety can only exist when we're in communities of people who believe what we believe. And belief and values are what engenders trust, not just doing everything you say you're going to do. That doesn't engender trust. That's just reliability. I work with plenty of companies that do everything they say they're going to do, but I would drop them like a hot potato if something better came along. And I work with plenty of other companies that screw up all the time, and they're not that cheap. And yet, I'm not open to any other options, because I love them.

And that's the word I use, you see: "love". Like is rational, "Yeah, I really like them. They have a good product. They do good work. I really like them." "Do you love them?" "Nah, I mean, nah, nah." As opposed to, "I love working with that person," or, "I love working with that company," no matter what else you sell me, no matter what else you promise me, I'm just not interested. So that's the reason why why matters.

Because without it, you may be successful, and you may make money, but you'll never find joy, you'll never find long-term fulfillment. You don't wake up inspired to go to work. You don't come home fulfilled by the work that you do. At the end of the day, you become very self-interested, because it's about my survival, paying the bills, feeding the kids, pay the mortgage, as opposed to looking out for each other. And great societies, like great companies, like great organizations, like great neighborhoods, are when we look out for each other.

Peter King:

Yeah, you know, I think there's a real obvious business case to that, which is, in a flattened economy, in a flattened world where, all things being equal, what's going to differentiate you from somebody else? Identifying your why, identifying your beliefs really help you resonate with your audience, and rise above all the noise and distraction that we're so ... There's such attention deficit in this economy right now. So there's a real business case I think for that as well. That's why I think this message really has impacted the business community, because we don't think about that as much.

Simon Sinek:

I would put it another way, which is, when you talk about everything being flattened, I'd say pretty much every product or service on the market today is now a commodity. You know? And a commodity is defined by that which can only compete on price, quality, service, and features. If that's all you've got, you're a commodity. You know? Then, when you talk about resonance, I mean, listen to the word we use, "It resonates." What does that mean? A vibration? That's what resonate means. Right? But it kind of does mean that. When you resonate with another person, it means that there is that emotional connection. Emotional connection doesn't mean you make people cry. Emotional connection means you connect with them in that limbic part of the brain; the part of the brain that controls emotions. That's what an emotional connection means. It means we connect on a values and beliefs level.

And so the feeling you get, it is literally a resonance. "Oh, this feels great!" You know? It is a resonance. But not in the traditional physics metaphor. But it [crosstalk 00:10:41].

Peter King:

I really feel like this is a step up for mankind, because there's really, you know, there's the business community that says, "Oh, this is the magic pill. This is the silver bullet that allows me to make more money." But you can't fake it. I mean, it has to be authentic. Otherwise, the community's going to reject it. So, again, I love this concept, I love that idea, because in the business sense, it makes us better business partners with our customers.

Simon Sinek:

Yep. And the reason it can't be faked is because we're hard wired. Don't forget, our survival depends, as a human species, our survival depends on our ability to find people who believe what we believe. Which is why the video conference will never replace the business trip. Not in a million years would you sign a big deal with somebody without getting the opportunity to shake their hand or look them in the eye. This does not count. Most of the times we're looking at ourselves anyway when we do these things. Right? It's nice to look at you, but it's much harder to connect. You know? Versus sitting next to somebody. You can meet somebody online, but you won't marry them until you go on a date with them.

And so this is what people forget, which is, the human animal is hardwired for this stuff. We're attuned to it. Which is why we don't trust politicians. They tell us what we want to hear, but there's something not right, because it doesn't feel right, because there's consistency that's not there. Businesses are the same way, which is, we attempt to tell people what they want to hear in the hope that they will find us appealing, but the reality is, the more you try and do that, the more it falls flat on its face.

The whole concept of some of these branding exercises where you go out into the market and ask all your customers who you should be and what you should do, what if I asked you to go ask your friends, you know ... I want you to do this. At the end of this call, I want you to call up your best friend and say, "Hey, how do you want me to talk to you, and how do you want me to dress so that you'll like me more?" And your friend is going to be like, "What?" You're going to be like, "Well, my relationship with you really matters, and I want to do right by you, because I put my friends first, and so I want you to tell me how you want me to dress and how you want me to talk to you so that you'll like me more and we can be friends for a long time." I mean, it's a ridiculous exercise. You friend's going to be like, "I don't know. Just be yourself." That's what they're going to tell you. Right?

Peter King:

Right.

Simon Sinek:

Well, it's just as stupid when we go out and ask our customers, and say, "Well, look, we're really customer-focused, and we care about you, so tell us how you want us to act and how you want us to be so that you'll like us for the long-term." It's the same nuttiness. It's a human relationship.

Peter King:

Yeah, it really is.

Simon Sinek:

It's a human relationship.

Peter King:

Great, great point. The number one question that I got when I asked my community was, "How do you know when you've identified your why? And what is the litmus test for knowing that?"

Simon Sinek:

Yeah, again, because this exists in the emotional part of the brain, you can rely on your emotions to give you clues as to whether you're on it or not. Right? In other words, we're not looking for it to sound good. We're not looking to say, "I think this is right." We don't want that neocortical reaction. We want something limbic. We want to say, "Whoa, that's it! That's it!" You want an emotional reaction. If you can say something or put it into words that you can give yourself goosebumps, that's an emotional reaction, right? Or, you can make yourself well up with tears, that's an emotional reaction. Or the best words you can muster up to describe it, it's just like, "Oh, wow! Whew! Oh, yeah! Oh, that is awesome, man! That is awesome!" Right? It's just like that.

And very often it's an iterative process. So you might throw something against a wall and you'll be like, "Yeah, it feels right. I'm in the ballpark. But I'm not there yet." That's how we'll talk. "What do you mean "there"? Where? Where are you going?" But we're trying to put into words emotions with the part of the brain that doesn't control language. So this is how it comes out. But if you keep going through it, and the better you get at talking about yourself, strangely enough, sort of why you do what you do, not why you think customers will like you, not why you think you're different in the marketplace, "Well, you know, really why we do what we do is because with our product people really have ... " No, no, no. You're still dancing around the outside.

It's when you can say, "The reason I took a huge risk to start this business, because there's a hell of a lot of choice out there, and the overwhelming opportunity of failure by doing it alone, and I took a huge pay cut, and a huge cut in benefits, and I convinced my friends, I inspired my friends to do the same thing because they believed in me, and I don't have any resources, and I can't compete against the big companies, and I've got no advertising, and yet it's still worth it ... " that's the reason I want to know. Why is it still worth it? What was the human problem that you were trying to solve? What's the reason that you thought this was so important that you had to do it? And if it was to fill a market opportunity, then you're probably going to fail anyway, because there is no cause. It's just expediency, or hope to make a buck. And that lasts for about that long, and then you run out of steam.

Peter King:

So here's a good followup question to that, which is, to what extent does economics factor into your why? I hear what you're saying, and in your video you say that financial profits is really a result. But for that business owner, for that entrepreneur, for that person who's providing for their family, or providing for their employees, and their shareholders or customers, economics do need to play into it. Does it not? I mean, at what point do you say it's a non-issue? Maybe your cause is to do something that has no monetary benefit. Where do you draw that line? How much does that factor into your discovery of your why?

Simon Sinek:

In terms of the discovery, zero. Right? Because money is always a measurement. Right? That's what it is. You can literally write it down in numbers. It's a measurement. And all three levels of the Golden Circle must be there for you to have balance. The problem is, most organizations are fixated on what and how. We call that tactics and strategy. Tangible, and process; strategy, tactics. Right? Whats are always measurable and always tangible. And money, no matter how you want to gauge it, or however you want to measure your progress, is always a what.

And so when you obsess about what and how, you're out of balance, because you need all three. But equally as dangerous is to be, you know, what did Thomas Edison say? "Vision without execution is hallucination." Right? You can be all why, and you've got no goods. It's just as ridiculous. And so you can have the world's biggest vision, but if you can't actually execute, if you can't actually get anything out of the door, that's going to fail just as much. That's going to be just as soul-sucking. And sadly, that is probably the role of most entrepreneurial failures, which is tons of vision, tons of passion, complete inability to produce any process, complete inability, or at least struggle [inaudible 00:18:09] energy to ship. And after a couple of years, you run out of resources or will, and it collapses. So absolutely the money matters, just not first. Absolutely the quality of the product matters, just not first.

Peter King:

That makes sense.

Simon Sinek:

It comes later as proof, as a result that this cause resonates.

Peter King:

Okay. So walk us through the process for discovering your why. Give us sort of the big picture. What are the stepping stones to discovering your why?

Simon Sinek:

It can happen quickly or slowly, depending on the person, and depending on the process. When I sit down to do it with people, just because of practice, I've been doing it for a few years now, it used to take me, you know, a day, and I got it down to half a day, and now I'm down to about 20 minutes. Which is fun. But this why discovery process that we offer at StartWithWhy.com, you know, the Why University, it goes through the complete process. So you not only learn your why, there's only one, but you also learn how you do those things: your hows, the guiding principles, the values you ... your natural strengths that gear you. And the process of why is fundamentally an origin story. Where do you come from? Why did this thing begin in the first place?

So our personal whys will come from our upbringing, from how we grew up. It's our origin story. It's the lessons we learned from our teachers, from our parents, the experiences we had growing up. And your why is fully formed, probably by your late teens, and you are who you are by your late teens, maybe early 20s at the absolute latest, but probably late teens. You are who you are.

None of us have ... you know, we might have tweaked, and sort of become more self aware, but the opportunity that your life gives you, or your career, is to either live a life in balance or out of balance, to find a job, or to build a company that allows you to be who you are: why, and allows you to work to your natural strengths: "I love working here!" Right? "I struggle working here." Like, "Yeah, I really got into this field because I love the field, but I don't like working here. I don't love it here. And I don't understand, because I love the field. I'm so into pottery, and yet I took this job at this pottery company and, yeah, I don't feel it anymore." And that has nothing to do with the love of the pottery. That has to do with the environment of the people you're with.

So it's an origin story. And that's why, for a person who goes through the why discovery process, we go right back to the beginning. "Where do you come from?" Totally objective. It's not your opinion about your position in the marketplace. And the same for organizations. If there is no founder present, or preferably there is a founder, or if the company has changed hands a few times, you still go right back to the beginning. What is the origin story of that organization, of that company? What was the problem that existed, probably a personal problem, or a problem that somebody that they love suffered that they developed a solution for that problem that was so effective that they actually ended up selling the solution to lots of other people? That's what it is.

Bill Gates's why is to help people be more productive so they can achieve their greatest potential. And the origin story of Microsoft is this incredible technology for the personal computer that most of us couldn't access because we didn't speak code. I remember you had to know DOS to get anything done. And it was really just for geeks. I mean, it was for nerds. It was the development of Windows, which is a similar line that Apple took, which is the graphic user interface. It was the software that sat on top that allowed the average Joe to take advantage of this remarkable, remarkable technology. Right? In other words, he found a way to help us be more productive so we could achieve our greatest potential.

And his why hasn't changed. If you go listen to his Ted Talk about the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, you can replace the word "personal computer" with mosquito nets, and it's the same talk he gave in the 1970s about the computer. His why hasn't changed. It's what he's doing to bring that why to life; has changed. So it's fundamentally an origin story. It's where you or your business come from; where you started.

Peter King:

Now, what if you're an employee at a company that's very what-driven? You're not necessarily the principle, maybe you're a manager or [inaudible 00:22:47]? What's some advice that you can give that person to help maybe cultivate a more why-driven culture?

Simon Sinek:

There's a couple of options. When you know your own why, I mean, fundamentally, there's an efficiency to helping companies find their why, because the better they get at talking about it, the more it'll attract people like that. Right? And so it forms strong communities. So there's an efficiency to that. If that company hasn't done that, and they're very just sort of numbers-driven, numbers-driven, numbers-driven, for an employee to learn their why will give them clarity of something. Which is, "Do I really belong here in the first place?" Right? "And maybe I'll never find joy and happiness here, because they just don't get it, which means I don't connect with them." That's what that means.

So instead of bashing your head against a way, you may realize, "I'm not the crazy one here. I just have to go somewhere else." So that's one piece of clarity you gain. But the other part is, "No, no, no. I've been here long enough that I remember a time when it was special, and we lost it. And I still do love it here, and I still belong, but we've become very numbers-driven." And in that case, understanding the why of the organization and your connection to it, or your why, the tail can wag the dog.

And I have been a part of tail-wagging-the-dog exercises in organizations that are very, very, very large. I'm talking huge. Like, well over 100,000 people, where the organization had kind of lost its way, lost its why, and become much more numbers-focused than it was in the past. And there were a few people inside the organization at different levels and at different places who still believed in the origin story, who still believed in the founding purpose, and knew their cause, and knew that this place was right for them, if only this place could get it right.

An so what they started to do, some of them knew about each other, but a lot of them didn't. Which is, they started talking about what they believed. They started talking about why this organization helps them. Why they love it here. And that message started to resonate with those who believed what they believed. And then it started to create pockets of high performance, and more importantly, high morale. And then, of course, the message spreads to the point where the senior leaders couldn't ignore it, because it was coming from every direction. And so finally, the senior leaders started saying the same thing. So the tail wagged the dog.

Peter King:

Interesting.

Simon Sinek:

It is an amazing thing to be a part of and to watch. When I talk about the law of diffusion of innovations, where you don't need the majority, you just need that percentage of people who believe what you believe, and then eventually it tips to seeing an action. It's one thing to theorize about the existence of tipping points. It's quite another thing to make one. When you can make one and you actually watch it tip, it is a thing of beauty.

Peter King:

I bet.

Simon Sinek:

It's a thing of beauty. And I remember this particular example. I got an email, it was an event that happened that we were like, "Wow." It just worked. And I got an email that said, "The dog just wagged."

Peter King:

Oh, that's gratifying.

Simon Sinek:

Yeah. So the answer is, if you feel that you belong there, understanding your own purpose, and trying to understand why you love it there, and even if all you can talk about is experience, even if all you can talk about is your own personal experience and anecdote, that's enough to resonate with the people who believe what you believe.

Peter King:

If you don't mind me asking, you were talking about discovering your why really starts from your origin, your upbringing. What was it in your upbringing that really led you to be the why guy and help other people understand their inspiration?

Simon Sinek:

You know, it's a hard question for me, because, just like I think it's much easier to go through the why discovery process with somebody else, you know, because when you're in the middle of it you kind of see it, but when they're asking you questions it's easy for them to see. Which is why I can do it so efficiently, because I'm on the outside. Right? So I can see the forest for the trees.

So asking me what it was in my childhood, I couldn't tell you specifically, but I can tell you my parents were pretty awesome. And I can tell you that I had this upbringing where I lived all over the world. Maybe that had something to do with it. But I can't tell you where the Golden Circle comes from. In other words, the reason it's hard for me to answer the question is because my process is the same as everybody else's. Which is, if everybody could just sit back and say, "Well, this is what happened in my childhood. That's what ... " We don't know our why. If only it were that easy. And unfortunately, I've never really gone through the process in the same way. You know? Because-

Peter King:

So what was the [crosstalk 00:27:27], the ah-ha moment for you?

Simon Sinek:

Yeah. I can tell you the birth of why. That I know. In September to December 2005, the dates are indelibly printed in my brain, I reached probably the darkest point I've ever reached in my life. I'm a pretty happy-go-lucky guy, and here I reached this point of, probably depression. I didn't know how to deal with it. I mean, just being unhappy was so foreign to me.

I had a little business, and living the American dream. Started my business. First year went really well, second year went pretty good, third year wasn't bad. And by the fourth year, I had now joined this very elite club in the United States of companies that have survived three years or more. Right? It's a club. And so that was pretty amazing. But the novelty and the excitement and the passion had worn down, because it had took me so much personal energy to get there. And I was struggling, personally. I'd lost my passion for what I was doing. I didn't enjoy it anymore. And people would give me stupid advice like, "Do what you're passionate about." It's like, "We know that, but what am I passionate about?" Or, this is [inaudible 00:28:37], "Do what you love." It's like, "I'm doing the same thing. I don't love it anymore." You know?

So that was useless. And I went through this dark place. And I'd already articulated this Golden Circle, simply to understand why some marketing worked and some marketing didn't. I was always fascinated how organizations of equal resources, and equal talent, and on equal media, some worked and some didn't. I looked at all the same organizations: Apple, Harley-Davidson, Southwest. And I noticed that there was an order pattern to how they spoke to us. So I wrote it down and called it the Golden Circle, even back then. And then, it sat on a shelf. It was good for PowerPoints.

And it wasn't until I reached this dark point and I met someone who started to ask me, "Do you know how the human brain works?" And I said, "No." And they started telling me about the neocortex and the limbic brain. And the more I started to read about it, and it's basically, really, neuroscience 101. I realized that the overlap of how the brain works and this little pattern I had on my shelf perfectly overlapped.

So I hadn't discovered why marketing works. I'd discovered why people do what they do. And it was at that point that I realized that I knew what I did, and I was really good at it. And I knew how I was different or better than my competition, but I couldn't tell you why I was doing it in the first place. And it was my inability to answer that question that I became obsessed, absolutely obsessed with answering that question. And I figured out a system, a way to find my why, and more important, to help others find theirs. And I knew I couldn't do it myself, so I actually brought somebody else in to sort of take me through sort of a bastard version of my own process. You know?

Peter King:

Interesting.

Simon Sinek:

And I remember, he was a great guy. Mark [Leedy 00:30:13] was his name. And he charged me more than I could afford. And I remember calling my bookkeeper and saying, "Can I do this?" And she said, "You cannot do this." You know? It's like, "This is just way more money than you can afford right now. It's just really not good." I hung up the phone with her, called him up, and said, "Let's do this." Because I knew that the risk, although high, I had to do it, otherwise I would have drilled into the ground all by myself.

And learning that my why is to inspire people to do the things that inspire them, it gave me a purpose. It gave me a reason to come to work in the morning. And where I felt guilty that my employees then sort of ... I didn't seem connected to them, and they didn't seem to respect me much, I think. I think they thought I was a bit of an idiot. I used to think it was me, and I made my struggle even worse, because I had the pressure of proving to them that I wasn't an idiot, or at least proving to them that I kind of knew what I was doing, which I didn't, that I had all the answers, which no one ever does.

And I realized it wasn't me, it was them. I had hired people who didn't believe in me. They were good at what they did, wonderful people. I can't say anything bad about them, good human beings. But fundamentally, if they thought the things that I said were hokey, that means they didn't believe in me. Right? The more I started to talk about inspiration, the more they thought it was cute. And I was like, "I think we're not going to be able to work together anymore." And I literally, completely scaled back to just me.

I decided I was going to turn myself into the guinea pig and prove that this thing works, and I wanted no fuzziness or distraction, and I started from zero all over again. And the ride was passionate from the get go. I've never had such passion like that in my life. I got out of my lease for my office, and all my friends thought I went out of business, and I'd never been happier. And started making more progress than I'd ever made in my life. I started making more connections than I'd ever made in my life. I started meeting people I'd never imagined meeting. I started getting involved in things I'd never imagined getting involved in. I started doing things that I'd never imagined doing.

I get four to six speaking requests per day now. Prior to this stuff, the amount of paid public speaking I did in my whole life was one. You know? I never imagined writing a book. I had a 29-minute meeting with a publisher, and three days later I had a book deal. I mean, it's like, the more I talked about why, and the more I talked about what I believed, other people who believed what I believed were willing to take [inaudible 00:32:46] risk of me, or introduce me to somebody [inaudible 00:32:49] the way they felt. And the bonds I formed were quick and powerful.

To this day, I'm doggedly disciplined, or at least I try to be doggedly disciplined about only working with people who really believe what I believe. I'll never convince somebody to do work with me, or to work with them, and I'll never twist anybody's arm. I've had opportunities where people call me up and they say, "You know ... " and they have an answer for everything. You know, "So, Simon. Tell us your theories about the world." And I spew forth. And they'll say, "You know, in our business it's not really like that. That's not really going to work here." I'm like, "So what are you talking to me for? Go hire somebody else. I don't know what to tell you." As opposed to me trying to convince them how I've worked with companies just like theirs before, and, "Don't worry. I can do it."

And this confidence in being honest is new. We all work to be honest. We all try to be honest. But when somebody says to us something like, "Have you worked in our industry before?" And you haven't. You know? "Have you worked with a company like this before? This size, this this, this that, or this problem?" We want to say, "Well, I've worked in other things just like it." You know? As opposed to saying, "Nope, totally new."

Peter King:

It is what it is.

Simon Sinek:

It is what it is. And it gives you that incredible calm, and that incredible release to sort of just say it as it is. And the strange thing is, people trust that much more. They trust that you're honest, than saying what they want to hear.

Peter King:

Right. It's refreshing. You talked about something right there that I think is such an integral piece to really living your purpose, which is who you're actually doing it for, who you're actually serving, what is your community and your market? For years, I was going into consulting programs or whatever, and a lot of times, like you were saying, you get that question asked, "What are you passionate about? What do you do?" And I was so focused on that. And I just kept spinning my wheels.

And It got to a point where I was spending another godawful amount of money, and I'm sitting in the beginning of this year-long program. And I realized at that point, "I'm about to throw away all of this money if I don't know who my real market was," because I wasn't able to contribute and participate in all the training. And it was at that point that I wrote down who I wanted to serve for. And that was the breakthrough. So I think that's huge in discovering your why.

You mentioned a philosophy that you called "do no work". Tell us about what that means.

Simon Sinek:

You gave me a good idea, which I'm just going to jot down before I lose it. Which, by the way, is another thing. We have lots, and lots, and lots of ideas that our limbic brain gives us, that subconscious brain. And we think, "Wow, that's a good idea." And we don't write it down, and we forget it immediately. Or, you'll remember 5% or 10% of them. And so even if you never implement them, I'm a great believer in walking around with a little notebook. I actually keep one in my pocket at all times. Because you never know when or where a great idea will strike. So do no work, the concept of do no work, which we try and practice.

Peter King:

I like the thought of it.

Simon Sinek:

Yeah. The concept of do no work has nothing to do with hours in the day. It's the feeling you have towards the work you do. When you do work that inspires you, that sort of captures your why and allows you to live your why, and works to your natural strengths, it doesn't feel like work. It feels effortless, even though you're working hard, you're fully engaged, the problems are difficult, and you work long hours, you kind of enjoy it. There's kind of a love for it, you know? There's many words for it: "In the flow." That's one of them, you know, "When I'm in the flow." When you are passionate about something, these are the words we usually ascribe to those feelings.

The concept of do no work is to direct your job so that it is always appealing to your why, and always working to your natural strengths, so that all the work you do shouldn't feel like work, because work sounds like effort. It sounds like, "Ooh, do work." That sounds hard, as opposed to going out and having fun, which is what a lot of this stuff becomes.

And we all have periods of it. We all have moments of it. But the question is, how do you actually consciously direct your job responsibilities, the work you do, the direction of your company, whatever your role, so that it never feels like work?

Peter King:

You know, I can already hear the pessimists saying, "Well, that's easy for you to say, Simon. You're a bigshot author, whatever." Or, let's take maybe even a reasonable example where you have a small business owner, entrepreneur, and they have to wear 10 hats for their business to work. If you had unlimited resources, you could say, "I don't like doing that. Let me delegate it out." What if you don't? What's your advice there?

Simon Sinek:

So, it is an ideal. Do no work is an ideal to work towards. And as opposed to having accidental, lucky, in-the-flow moments, which you don't really know why they happen, you're just kind of like, "That was awesome," is to be more prescriptive about it. So instead of a lucky 10% or 15% of the time, you get to the 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80% of the time.

And by the way, what level of success someone enjoys, or what their resources are has nothing to do with this. We're talking about a human being engaged in something that brings them joy. And let me tell you, there are many, many days where I do not enjoy what I do. And for me, instead of saying, "I hate this," or, "I can't do this anymore," and I have days like that, is to understand, "Why am I having that feeling in the first place? What decision did I make? Not about them, not about the client, or the job, or whatever, that I find myself reacting this way?" Sometimes it's just fatigue. And when I'm very, very tired I say, "Okay, it's just fatigue." And I know fatigue is my weakness.

But it's more sophisticated than that. And I'll give you one simple example. I went to Afghanistan in August as a guest of the United States Air Force. And I had a very intense experience while I was there, and really, really learned what the concept of purpose means. And purpose is about serving those who serve others, serving those who believe what you believe.

Mother Teresa, who we hold up as the poster child of complete selflessness and giving service to anyone who needs it, hated her life, and near the end of her life, started to question the existence of God. In other words, she wasn't fulfilled. She didn't find happiness or joy because of it.

And this is what I learned when I got back from Afghanistan, where I learned that the goal is not to serve all customers. The goal is to serve the people who believe what you believe. The goal is not to try and bend over backwards to make everyone happy. The goal is to appeal to those who believe what you believe. And you look at the great organizations like Apple, or Harley-Davidson, or Southwest, they know that their customers are like them. And it's not about being good to everyone. It's about being good to those who believe what we believe, doggedly.

When I got back from Afghanistan I started to ... Thank you. I started to realize that I became very impatient on a lot of my jobs. And I couldn't figure it out. I became angry. Like, when things would go wrong, usually I'd just sort of take things in stride, I became sort of pissed off. Or, worse, I became sort of a bit of a diva, where I'm like, "What do you mean I didn't get the upgrade?" You know? "Do you have any idea how many miles I fly with ... " That would come out of my mouth, or at least go through my brain. You know? And I don't like feeling that way.

I started to realize that it was because when I took an engagement with an organization that wasn't service-minded, I had no patience for it. And yet, when I took an engagement with an organization that was service-minded, it didn't matter how many things went wrong, it didn't matter what went right. I just had endless, endless, boundless amounts of energy, and enjoyed every second of it, no matter how exhausted I was at the end of the day.

The other day I did an engagement with an organization that I love, and they're so service-oriented, I literally, I kid you not, I worked 15 straight hours. I started at 6:00 in the morning, and I was done, you know, whatever it is, 10:00 at night or whatever, 9:00 at night. And I did not have a break. And I was fine. Totally fine. Enjoyed every second of it. Was exhausted, but enjoyed every second of it. As opposed to another engagement where I worked for an hour and I'm like, don't want to talk to anybody at the end of it.

So I started to realize that I was out of balance; that I was doing work. And I don't like it when my job feels like work. I like it when my job feels like I'm doing what I should be doing.

Peter King:

Yeah. I think just to kind of bring a conclusion to this concept, if you are an entrepreneur, and if you're in that space, at least, as you're saying, identifying what it is that you feel is work, so that ultimately, when you get to that ideal, you know where that line is and you can separate that out. I mean, how many of us even do that? Probably [crosstalk 00:42:37].

Simon Sinek:

It's just decision making. We all do things that we don't like doing and that we don't want to do. And you can make the decision if you want to do it or not. And it has nothing to do with outsourcing or not outsourcing. You know? There's a lot of creative ways to outsource, like asking friends, or family, or advice, or help. You know? All of these foreign concepts. I think the biggest thing I learned is that I can't do it by myself. And I'm okay with admitting my weaknesses. And I'm okay with saying out loud what I can't do or what I don't know, because the opportunity for someone to say, "Oh, well, I do know." Or, "I want to help you." You know?

It's an amazing thing when you say what you believe, and people want to help you just because they want to be around it as opposed to saying what you do, and people will help you if you can pay them to help you. People who believe what you believe will take a risk on you, and understand that you're a good bet. And if you're not a good bet, they'll shrug and say, "Well, secretly, Simon, I kind of just like working with you." You know?

Peter King:

Living in that ideal state where work is not work, where it really is fun, and engaging, and inspiring, why don't more people discover their why? Why is this not front and center for a lot of people? Or, here's maybe a similar but separate question, which is, what's the biggest threat from keeping people to really, truly understand their why? What keeps them stuck in the what-driven lifestyle?

Simon Sinek:

One is personal, one is environmental. The personal one is, it's in this part of your brain that doesn't control language, and so it's really hard to put into words. And the fact that it's hard to put into words means it's hard to action it if you don't know what it is. You can just trust your gut your whole life, but that's a tricky thing to scale. And it's really hard to measure.

We live in a world in which what gets measured gets done, which is not necessarily ... You know, Gary Vaynerchuk talks about this, which I love, is, you know, "What's the ROI of your mother?" We're all pretty confident that we are who we are, and we live these great lives, or we've been able to become productive members of society, very much because of our mothers. The question is, "What's their ROI?" You know? "Measure that." And you can't. And that's the problem. And so that's one reason why we don't explore why, because we can't put an ROI on it on a day-to-day basis. But over the course of your life or career you say, "Man, I am one happy mofo." You know? That's because of your why.

So that's one issue, the measurement issue. And the other issue is environmental. Which is, we're living in a world which makes focusing on why more difficult. The time periods that we judge success by are becoming shorter, and shorter, and shorter. We used to just success over the course of years. We used to plan over the course of a decade. Now, you're a long-term planner if you have a one-year plan. And if you can't show results immediately, then you must be a failure. So the environmental one has put unbelievable pressure on us, whether it's a public company or a private company, and whether it's a big business or a small business, the environments of instantaneous media, and instantaneous measurements, and instantaneous results, and web metrics, and blah-dee-blah, put unbelievable pressure on us to focus on what.

So what that does is it requires tremendous courage to put that aside and ignore that to focus on why. Can you not check your portfolio every day? Can you not check your stock price every day? Can you not check your rankings every day? Because when you check them every day, you react to every little blip.

Peter King:

Mm-hmm (affirmative). Tell me a little bit about your thoughts on social media and how that's ... Well, social media, is that a good thing, bad thing? Pros and cons. What's your [crosstalk 00:46:36]-

Simon Sinek:

It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's a tool. You know? Is a hammer a good tool or a bad tool? I don't know. It depends on what you're trying to do, right?

Peter King:

It's affect on us though as a-

Simon Sinek:

Yeah. So I have a bit of an alternative view on social media, which is, I believe the internet is an amazing tool to spread information. It's an amazing tool to connect people. It's an amazing tool to drive the speed of transactions. But it is completely useless to help build strong human bonds. You can find people who like what you like, but you can't form love. You can't form human connections. It's very, very difficult. Just like we said, the video conference will never replace the business trip. It just will never happen. You will never have a peace deal signed over video conference. It'll never happen.

I sort of upset the blogosphere when I talk about this, because I don't think the internet is the end all be all. And it's not really a social medium at all. We talk at each other. We don't listen. And there's not a single company on the planet that has a community blog from which any innovation was derived. It's usually a bitchfest, is what it is. The blogosphere, it sort of lights up when I speak about these things. And yet, my question is always the same. Which is, every single year, 20,000 bloggers descend on Las Vegas to attend a conference called Blog World. My question is, "Why couldn't you do it online?" Because nothing replaces human contact. That's why. You know?

So in our increasingly social media world where we think we're making friends on Facebook, and we think we're knowing who they are ... By the way, who says what they write on Facebook is true in the first place? And how selective is our sight? You see somebody who does the three things that you like in the 50,000 pictures that they've got, and you're like, "She's for me." You know? "We're made for each other." You know? We create our own fantasies. And we're not really learning who people are. We're learning what they do. We're not really learning what makes them tick. We're just learning what they tell us they're interested in. And you lose that sense, that ability to read someone, to get a feeling for someone, to get a gut check on them. You can't do that. You just cannot.

You and I are having a nice conversation, but there's no feelings associated with this interaction. And yet, one day, if we ever get to meet for a cup of coffee or something. We'll shake hands and be like, "Hey, really nice to meet you." And that's when the connection will happen. Right? Or not. We don't know. "Yeah, nice guy." You know what I mean?

Peter King:

Yeah.

Simon Sinek:

So there's nothing wrong with social media if it is used alongside of normal getting to know people. But don't think it can replace it. Don't think it can replace it. I kind of disobey all of the social media rules, and they haven't hurt. I didn't understand the idea of having a dialogue with people on Twitter. It's not really a dialogue. I say something, you say something. I say something, you say something. You're, "Yeah." You know? That's not a dialogue. That's just statement after statement. So I don't really reply to that many people on Twitter. I don't really sort of engage with people. I use it as a repository for my ideas. Like, when I have a kooky little idea, I post it on Twitter. And strangely enough, people want to read them.

I literally started using it because I was tired of walking around with little scraps of paper that I tore from napkins and [inaudible 00:50:26] packets, and thought, "Well, I'll put them there." I had this account that I never used. And people started reading them and sharing them. But it's not social.

Now, if you're connecting with your friends, that's different. Then, you're using the medium to connect with people you already know. I think that's great. And if you're using the medium to give people information about your company, I think that's great, too. Spread of information: good, connecting with people: good. But the development of close human bonds, and deep, deep, deep trusting relationships-

Peter King:

Not so much.

Simon Sinek:

Not so much.

Peter King:

We're getting towards the end of our call here, but I wanted to ... I've seen this done in interviews before. I'm not a professional interviewer by any means. But the interviewer will throw out a word, and you throw your first word, or first phrase that comes to mind after I say the word. So first response type thing. Did you follow that?

Simon Sinek:

Yeah, I'll respond to what you say. And then, sadly, I have to jet. But I'm enjoying myself. Which is why I'm getting yelled at from behind.

Peter King:

Got you. So innovation.

Simon Sinek:

I'm in the flow. Innovation? Ideas.

Peter King:

Leadership.

Simon Sinek:

People.

Peter King:

Passion.

Simon Sinek:

Love.

Peter King:

Steve Jobs.

Simon Sinek:

A leader.

Peter King:

Believer.

Simon Sinek:

No, a leader.

Peter King:

Oh, a leader. Bill Gates.

Simon Sinek:

A leader.

Peter King:

Martin Luther King.

Simon Sinek:

A leader.

Peter King:

Barack Obama.

Simon Sinek:

Could have been a leader.

Peter King:

Interesting. Kim Kardashian.

Simon Sinek:

Don't care.

Peter King:

Had to throw that one in there. Technology.

Simon Sinek:

Convenient.

Peter King:

Google.

Simon Sinek:

Could have been a leader.

Peter King:

Facebook.

Simon Sinek:

Real potential to lead.

Peter King:

And last but not least, America.

Simon Sinek:

God bless this place, man.

Peter King:

Right on. Well, good place to wrap it up right there. Simon, I really appreciated the call today. And again, why don't you tell people who are watching this video where they can go to find out more about the why discovery process, and what you guys are up to at Start With Why.

Simon Sinek:

You can learn your why at StartWithWhy.com, if you click on the Why University. And we have a nice little community for people to join in who want to talk and be heard. On the same website, StartWithWhy.com, there's a blog that gives ideas on how to implement your why, and there's a lot of free resources as well. Of course, you can follow me on Twitter if you like 140 characters of inspiration. It's just @SimonSinek. And the book Start With Why is now available in paperback. So you can have it in hardcover, paperback, audio, I'll come to your house and read it to you if you want.

Peter King:

There you go.

Simon Sinek:

Available in fine bookstores everywhere, and some not so fine ones as well.

Peter King:

Awesome. Well, thank you again so much. I know you're busy. Thanks for taking the time.

Simon Sinek:

My pleasure. Thanks very much. I really enjoyed it.

Peter King:

All right. Take care, Simon.