Introduction to Kaye Putnam
4:38 Explanation of archetypes and the archetype brand quiz
8:13 Developing a brand that attracts people and repels people
13:15 Peter shares his personal experience with the archetype brand quiz
18:13 Differentiation between archetypal personality brand and a corporate led brand
23:53 Brand versus branding
26:01 Creating standards for your brand
32:07 The four “C’s” of brand strategy
35:29 Scaling up your business, adding a team
46:10 Communicating with other archetypes
51:07 Elevating the experience
55:59 Understanding your genius and living with purpose

Kaye Putnam
www.kayeputnam.com

Origins of Archetypal Psychology
Plato
Carl G. Jung
Carol S. Pearson
mentioned @ 6:40

Original author of quote uncertain, but is often attributed to Albert Einstein:
“Everybody is a Genius. But If You Judge a Fish by Its Ability to Climb a Tree, It Will Live Its Whole Life Believing that It is Stupid”
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/04/06/fish-climb/
mentioned @ 57:51

Peter (00:00:00):
You're listening to the PK experience podcast, where I tap into the minds of today's impact players. My name is Peter King. I'm the host of the show. And my guest today is Kaye Putnam Kay is a brand expert. She helps business owners and entrepreneurs go from brand ambiguity and confusion to brand clarity and aligned action. So, um, what's so fascinating and, uh, amazing. And the reason why I really wanted to bring her onto this call is because she's taken a very different approach to helping you discover what your unique brand, um, personality needs to be. And she does that through a quiz. So when you go to our website, you take this quiz and you find out what brand archetype you are in an archetype. We kinda explain what that is and the call, but, um, it really helps the brand unlock its fullest potential so that you're not miss positioning yourself and creating undue friction, because you're trying to communicate in a way that's not authentic to the actual brand.
Peter (00:00:55):
So that might be a little bit over your head at the moment, but Kay's gonna explain all of that here in a second. I'm so excited to bring her to the podcast. She is in many ways, a, uh, my secret sauce of mine. I've referred a lot of people to her. She's worked with hundreds and hundreds of business owners and entrepreneurs helping them, uh, tap their fullest potential in their brands. So it's a great honor to bring her to the podcast here I am with. Kay Putnam. All right. I'm here with Kay Putnam. Kate, thank you so much for joining the call. I am excited to talk to you.
Kaye (00:01:26):
I am so excited to be here. We are going to have an incredible conversation I can tell already. And thank you for having me.
Peter (00:01:34):
Fantastic. You know, it's a, as I mentioned too, in the pre-call you are my secret sauce, my secret weapon that, uh, I have shared with a handful of clients and other people, but, uh, it's selfish of me to, to keep you to myself. And I know you don't need me to get your word out there cause you're doing some awesome stuff, but for some of the people that don't know you just yet, I'm excited to bridge that gap a little bit. So again, thank you for joining us. You are the, the brand expert, the brand archetype expert. Um, I see this as a huge hole for so many businesses and entrepreneurs and you have done, I would argue, and I've been in this space a lot, the best job at helping people understand and define their own brand in a way that is that genuinely leverages their strengths and ultimately have that be something that affects the bottom line, because I think a lot of times businesses will just play around in this brand space and they'll throw different things against the wall, but it may not be something that actually affects the bottom line.
Peter (00:02:40):
How did you do that? How did you come up with that? Let's, let's get into a little bit of that backstory so we can understand where the genius came from. Okay.
Kaye (00:02:47):
Yes. Let's dive in. Thank you so much for all of the kind words. You're incredible. Um, so I got introduced to this work or I discovered this work or the reason why I've been teaching it is I needed it myself. So I think that I've always had this question of like, okay, who am I really? What is this identity? Who is K and how do I express that to the world? Especially as an entrepreneur who wants to stand out, attract people to me or palliative people that I don't want to work with kind of automatically. Um, and I stumbled on this like 1980s or nineties style website. It looks like it was built in like on like geo cities or Tri-Cities, or like one of those really ancient OGs website builders. And all it did was list the 12 archetypes. And up until that point, I just had this sense that I was missing something like I could see all of these successful entrepreneurs doing really amazing things.
Kaye (00:03:47):
And I would try to emulate their strategies or try to emulate their success. Like people tell you to do. And I was just falling flat on my face, just awkward, not seeing the results that I wanted to. And as I read through the descriptions of the 12 archetypes before I even knew where they came from, or like what the background was, I could suddenly see the identity of each of these entrepreneurs. I kind of in a systematic way. I could see that one was the hero. One was the lover. One was the Royal and I immediately needed to know which one I want. And that's where my brand archetype quiz, like the very first version of it was born about three or four years ago. Now, out of that desire for myself to figure out who the heck I was,
Peter (00:04:34):
You know, so you mentioned the brand archetype quiz, um, for those that are unfamiliar with the, with psychology, can you just briefly cover what it, what an arc archetype actually means and what that is and how that relates to you?
Kaye (00:04:49):
Totally. So brand archetypes are these patterns or reoccurring themes or categories that show up all across time, all across cultures. So it's not, um, something that is unique to online business today, but it's very applicable. So if you've ever heard of like Myers-Briggs personality test, you can kind of get a sense of what this is. But the cool thing about brand archetypes is that it's telling you more about like the values that you embody as a, like a character in your ideal client's minds, or like what kind of relationship you're going to have with your ideal clients. It's not just about you, it's actually about how you interact with the rest of the world and what your strengths are like, what, how you do that naturally at your best.
Peter (00:05:35):
I find that, um, the reason why this is so such important work is cause business to me is just a conversation. It's a conversation between the, the vendor and the con the, the customer, right? And so often we, we think I run across many businesses, business owners who try to position in the perfect way that the market that they think that the market should be, should want them. And while there's value in that. And while that, I think that may have worked better 20, 25 years ago in today's noisy marketplace, you gotta do things to stand out from other people. And so the brand archetype quiz that you have helps people understand who you are as a brand, so that you can communicate in such a way that's more effective and helps you rise above the competition in your market's eyes, which is, you know, I find that to be very difficult because it's hard to see yourself. It's hard to see yourself.
Kaye (00:06:37):
And do you give, sorry, Peter, just to give credit where credit's due. So I didn't invent the architypes. Um, they come like in the earliest forms from like Plato, he has philosophy around forms or recently Carl Young explored more into it. And then the ones that I actually use in my quiz were defined by Carol S. Pearson, uh, in some of her books about archetypes actually learned that after I discovered them. Um, but I want to make sure that I am making that clear and giving credit where credit.
Peter (00:07:08):
Yes. Um, I can respect that. Um, alright. So the first thing that people ought to do obviously is to take the archetype quiz. I've taken it before. And it did. I had a, an idea as to who I was, what my brand archetype was, but there's so much more detail in the quiz itself for those who haven't taken it yet, help people understand what type of information they're going to get when they take the quiz.
Kaye (00:07:34):
Yeah. So architects are really cool VR and AR are they starting to hand out this, but it goes beyond just the personality of your brand. So it doesn't just help you stand out, say like, if you're selling essentially the same product or services, a million different people, not only does it help you stand out by using your personality, but it connects to very universal human values. So like the value of love or being accepted or wisdom or transformation. So it gives you a deep dive into the psychology of your brand. So values, personality, uh, position. And again, that relationship, like what type of character, like, are you the best friend or are you the teacher and ways that you can express that to your audience, through the design choices and the word choices that you use.
Peter (00:08:22):
I find that, um, entrepreneurs that take the brand quiz that understand the type of archetype that they are not only do better in business, but they actually enjoy their business better because they're attracting people that they actually like. And that, you know, you mentioned earlier, um, to have a brand, I think this is key for so many businesses to actually have a brand that repels people tell, tell people what you mean by that.
Kaye (00:08:47):
Yeah. So I feel like before I discovered Brenner types, I felt like I was swimming upstream. Like I was trying to wear somebody else's shoes are just like all of this activity without the results. But like once you step into what you're naturally amazing at doing, and you're unapologetic about it. So like to give it this like a tactical flavor, one of the things that I do with all of my students, all of my, one of my clients is I have them do like an I believe exercise. So this is, um, like I believe, and then just finish the sentence with as many statements as you can cause the key with connecting to your archetype or connecting to the psychology behind your brand is you want to have a very concrete point of view. You need to have edges. You need to be willing to be a little bit polarizing so that the people who identify with those values, they recognize you. They see you, they're like, this is my person. And then the people who don't, which especially if, uh, like a small team or a small business, a values mismatch with one of your clients can be hugely detrimental. It can make you hate your life, hate your business. So you want to avoid that situation as much as possible.
Peter (00:09:58):
Yes. Um, a hundred percent. Um, that could be, that can be a little scary for, for entrepreneurs, um, who have not taken that leap who have not taken that stand to say here's an edge. Um, I'm not willing to, uh, deal with that type of person anymore. And maybe I already have customers that would mean I'm gonna have to alienate, you know, 20% of my customers or something like that. Do you have any advice on, uh, on having the courage, you know, developing the courage to make that stand?
Kaye (00:10:30):
Oh gosh. Yeah. I wish it were easier. I think that it's, um, the promise, the promise land on the other side, there's the only thing I can really point to it's once you get to the point where the majority, the vast majority of your clients are people that are like minded that aren't questioning like down to like the way that you do things. Cause your personality is going to inform your strategy. It's gonna inform your processes, your rules or conditions for doing business with people. Um, so if you can get in alignment with people who naturally enjoy your personality type and the way that you interact with the world, there's just less like customer service problems. There's less issue and people just get you more easily. So I encourage people to try it, like test it out. It's not like you have to be discriminatory, discriminatory, but just be more vocal about what you do believe in who you do want to attract.
Peter (00:11:28):
Right. I think a lot of that comes down to copy and language and how you're communicating who you are, because like you said, you could take the same product, but different brand archetypes would communicate that same product or service in wildly different ways. And I think getting to understand what you help us better understand about ourselves, gives people the confidence to say, Oh, like, this is, I do use more of this type of language. I do use words like transformation and aha moments and, you know, um, making the invisible, visible like that. Cause I'm the magician archetype, those things, you know, call to me. I hear that. I, I feel that, um, so if I'm using words like w like, what are some other, like a hero type word would be conquer, uh, achievement,
Kaye (00:12:16):
Right? Yeah. Like, um, I'm trying to think of some of the other, like basically any sports analogy kind of falls underneath the hero archetype, um, or like military ask type of things. So like a squadron or like a teammate, those types of things feel much more hero. And so what's interesting is like, you'll see that when you get to your archetype, you're like, Oh yeah. I mean, I'm doing some of this naturally that that's the reaction that we want to have because we're trying to tap into what makes you amazing. But it also starts to make you more aware of the language that you are using. Cause maybe you're using something like conquer your fears as a main message and your brand, but you're nothing like the hero archetype. It kind of gives you that new awareness to like, Oh, maybe I'm sending the wrong message here, mixed messages here. Maybe I can give that like a transformation, not to, not to tap into both of our magician architects here, but transform that message into something that's much more aligned for you and your clients.
Peter (00:13:13):
I have to share a story, a quick story with you on this, because you were instrumental in helping me. If initially it feels like a little tweak, but when you project that out, it's, it's a completely different business altogether. So I was in the space of coaching other men, and it occurred to me that men are attracted to warriors. Men are attracted to the hero archetype. So there's, there was clarity there. So in my mind, I created this retreat where I wanted to have guys come out and I partnered up with some special forces guys and it was going to be this really cool thing. And keep in mind, I am the magician archetype through and through not fully really realizing it and more importantly, not fully implementing it. And so I put together a website and put together this retreat, it was all about, Hey, come hang out with these Navy seals.
Peter (00:14:03):
Greenbrae is like, and in my head, I'm going, yes, my market wants this guys want that type stuff. And so I put all this stuff. It was like, you said, swimming upstream. I'm like, what, what am I missing? And meanwhile, there's a friend of mine who just, he is the warrior archetype through and through the hero archetype and he's putting out stuff. And it was like, I'm watching him and he just exploded. And of course, you know, I'm like, I'm missing something obviously. And then I came across your archetype quiz. And I realized, even though I already have psychological, you know, I've done, uh, I've been in psychology and I had some awareness of it. It didn't give me the concrete, um, assurances of who I am. And then more importantly, what I found out was, was I actually joined up forces with this friend of mine now who, um, I'm like, I need to learn from this guy because I'm missing something.
Peter (00:14:54):
And what I realized was number one, yes, he was the warrior archetype. So he naturally fit. Like I was looking at his copy, his copy was short, it was punchy. It was right to the point. Mine was like paragraph long. It's the theorial it's like, and you know, and so I'm like, Oh, okay, that's really interesting. But the most important thing that I found was, was he was attracting a lot of men into his circle. They were getting a lot of value out of it. But then there was a few that were bumping up against stuff. So for example, a guy that wanted to lose weight and the warrior message to him is dude, suck it up, roll. Yeah. Get out there, stop complaining. Let's go. And that's necessary. There's there's value in that. This is not about knocking that message. Some guys need that.
Peter (00:15:35):
I need that. But there was a lot of guys that were going like, but there's something else I've already tried that I'm missing something. And I realized, Oh, the magician archetype is the second conversation. It's the second conversation in this guy's journey. So partnering up with this friend of mine in a way I haven't, there is no actual partnership, but realizing that he's a great first step for a lot of guys, but then there's going to be that, that second conversation that I can kind of step into. So that actually reveals a little bit of my secret sauce, but I just wanted to tip my cap to you more than actually probably tip my cap because how much that has affected my business, my communication, my understanding of myself, my understanding of my role in wanting to really serve this clientele. So that's the type of power that comes out of better understanding your brand archetype.
Peter (00:16:28):
And I will say this, I have to say this as well. A lot of people will be able to take your quiz like I have and get immense value out of it. I actually took your quiz and for about a year and a half was like, I'm good. Like, thanks, Kay. I appreciate it. I got my color palette. I know what my brand archetype is. You actually give, you know, some examples of other pop culture icons that are that same archetype so I can go, Oh, okay. I can see what they're doing. You give us language, you give us some tagline ideas. I was good. And then I kind of hit a plateau again. And I'm like, I need, I need Kagan. Let me get, let me get came back and bought the course. And you go so much more in depth than the actual course. So for, I know this is, I'm kind of geeking out on UK, so you're going to have to deal with it, deal with it for a little bit, but I just can't speak highly enough of you and what you've done because it genuinely, uh, profoundly affects businesses. So I'm excited to show that anyway.
Kaye (00:17:22):
Thank you so much. Like my heart is bursting over here. Oh, you're amazing. I mean, that's what we do before, right? It's like,
Peter (00:17:32):
Yeah. So, um, all right. Enough on that. Nothing.
Kaye (00:17:37):
Yeah. And for people who are kind of struggling with this concept, I mean, imagine like making a friend with somebody and that friend is like trying to mold themselves into what they think that you want to be like, you just, it doesn't feel right. You're just kind of like, I mean, maybe we'll do coffee ones, but we're not going to be like VFS. So the moment you actually like step into your own skin and give yourself permission and give yourself some of the tools to be able to express yourself, honestly, truthfully and powerfully magic happens. So, yeah.
Peter (00:18:11):
Alright. So let's get into some more tactical questions for a lot of, uh, I'm in the sort of coaches, authors, trainers, speakers space, often entrepreneurs, you know, um, and a lot of times they struggle between do I brand around me as a personality or do I brand around a concept or a brand, you know, be more brand led versus personality led your advice on that.
Kaye (00:18:36):
So surprise, surprise. There's not one right answer for everybody, but I'm going to give you some rules of thumb that I give all of my clients. So whenever you're selling your genius, your methodology, your services, your brain, essentially, whether that's like in a course or a mastermind or a book, having a personal brand makes a ton of sense. It gives you the freedom to pivot, like your experience. Like you can start with one thing and then you can shift to a completely different product, very easily with a personal brand. Um, the times when a corporate led brand makes more sense is when it's about more than you, meaning like maybe you have a big team or like a collaborative of experts that you're promoting. Maybe it is, um, a piece of software. So it's like not your brain. It's like more about the process or the thing that you're selling. Um, so those are kind of the distinctions that I try to make. And even if you have a personal brand, you're going to have sub brands underneath that. So you're gonna have your courses, your books, your methodologies, those are all going to be branded, but it's under the umbrella of your personal brand.
Peter (00:19:42):
For those that are more corporate led and you're dealing with larger teams of people, maybe, um, maybe even the founder of the business is no longer even in the picture. And so perhaps the leaders of the organization are different archetypes personally than the corporation is itself. Um, have you had experience with larger businesses and how they navigate that and, or perhaps like we were talking about before, maybe you do recognize that the market wants to be spoken to in a particular way, but it may be isn't your brand archetype. Do you recommend doing that? And if so, how do you navigate that?
Kaye (00:20:18):
Yeah. Yeah. So the, with bigger teams, you still, I like to say that you can't outsource the vision or you can't like have people vote on division. So it helps to have either a founder or a CEO or COO that's leading this process, helping set the vision, like set the standards for the rest of the brand. You're going to get, like, you're gonna want to have conversations or collaborations about what is honest and true for your business. Uh, I think it's really interesting when you use archetypes as a strategic decision. So for example, when you're thinking about like buying ice cream, there's like Ben and Jerry's, I have like the entertainer arrive brand to like political bent to it. And then you can consider it right next to like hugging us, which is this like sexy, provocative, like all about the, the pleasure of eating ice cream, like same product. But if I was coming into the market as a new ice cream brand, I'd choose something different than those two. I would stand out using a different personality. So there it's, you need to balance the what's true for you. And then you as a corporate brand, you do have a little bit more leeway to choose something that's strategic for the market.
Peter (00:21:33):
Uh, I love that idea that you can't outsource vision. Cause you're really talking about leadership. And if you're saying, Hey, somebody else lead, then you're not really leading that. I need to meditate on that one. How do you, what do you recommend if you are competing against another archetype, the same archetype in the same space?
Kaye (00:21:54):
Yeah. I always recommend that people choose two archetypes. So typically that blend is going to give you a little bit more, um, detail or like a little bit more finesse, a little bit more of your own special sauce that you can lean into. And then as a thought exercise, let's just assume that they have this exact same primary, the exact same secondary. The cool thing about archetypes is they can be expressed in lots of different ways. So I really try to avoid just being too similar. I mean, for people to pay attention for people to pay or just like to take notice of a brand by definition, it has to be different. So figure out how you can express it a little bit different, but all of this side, I am so much more of a proponent of you looking inward at what is best for you, as opposed to like trying to do this survey of the market or survey of the ideal clients. You always have to start with your own truth. First. I like to say, build your brand on truth and not trends don't look to the market to make all of these really important decisions.
Peter (00:22:59):
Yes. Uh that's that makes a lot of sense. It's tough to do that sometimes. Um, when you don't know what that truth is, or, or perhaps you've, maybe you thought you've done that and you've put your truth out there and it's not working. Um, and how do you, and where do you pivot from there? You know, so that's, you know, that's what you need that outside mentorship sometimes to say, well, how have you thought about it this way? Have you looked at it this way? Yeah.
Kaye (00:23:27):
One sometimes. I mean, defining your brand can sorry, this, if this is a tired analogy, but like, it feels like you're on the inside of a bottle trying to read the outside label. We're just not very good at seeing ourselves clearly as humans. So getting some outside perspective can be really helpful in that process.
Peter (00:23:43):
Yes. Um, all right. Let's take a next step into, cause I find sometimes people conflate brand with branding. Um, the metaphor that I often use when I'm talking to people about this is brand is the person branding is the clothes they wear. Um, cause the clothes can change or you know, the same person can go to a wedding and dress up and then go to the beach and wear flip flops. But they're, but that brand, the personality, the insides stay the same on that. Um, what's your recommendation on how to come up with the best type of branding for the archetype that you are?
Kaye (00:24:22):
So for the branding, so that outward expression of what's inside is a lot of it is dictated by association. So our brains, like we know from leaning into the archetypes, assign categories and patterns, like we're always trying to make sense of the world around us. So we make assumptions and we take shortcuts, mental shortcuts to understand things and color psychology is a result of this. So like when you walk outside, it's, you're going to see the green grass, the green tree, some Brown on the trunk of the tree and the blue sky. So those types of colors tend to feel more natural. They might be a really good fit for an X score brand. For example, the magician brand tends to be a little bit more out of this world. So sometimes like the night sky type of color palette works really well as a representation of the magician brand.
Kaye (00:25:16):
So the key is always to start with the, uh, the key message that you're trying to get across. So like, are you trying to get across the idea of strength? If so you probably want to choose some like very bold and saturated colors, like you see on a sports team Jersey, for example, again, that association, if you were a hero brand, if you're trying to communicate something that's pure and simple, you're gonna use a lot of white. So just making those like design itself is it's like, it's like an entire language. So if you're not fluent in the language of design, getting help in this area can be very, very beneficial, but just make sure that, you know, what you're trying to communicate before you start that process of choosing how you're going to communicate that.
Peter (00:26:01):
Yes. Um, okay. So someone goes through the archetype quiz they have, or purchase some of your products. They understand the type of archetype that they are. Um, what would you say is the next best step?
Kaye (00:26:14):
I like to pay a lot of attention to my intuition at that point. So I always start with research like gathering as much information about the two archetypes that you're going to lean into as possible. And then start to use your intuition of just paying attention to the things that really resonate with you personally, because you don't have to use every piece of inspiration from the two archetypes. Not every expression of that. Archetype is going to resonate with you, but start pulling in your favorite pieces. So maybe you like some copy from your, or maybe you like the design palette from your primary and start to make some decisions that you can create standards around. So the standards that you want to have in place for your brand are not just the visuals. So not just what your logo is, your colors and your fonts, but also like what types of words are you going to use in your brand? What if a writer or copywriter or virtual assistant or regular assistant was going to step into your brand and be you, how would you describe the voice of your brand to them? How would you describe how you format text or style text, or the complexity of language that you use? So getting all of those standards documented is the next step to actually like scaling your brand, especially when you're bringing in team members to help you express it.
Peter (00:27:32):
Hmm. Um, putting together some guidelines so that everybody is pointing in the same direction. Got it. Um, you have some, I noticed I haven't seen the video yet, but I saw a video of yours about taglines riding taglines, give us, uh, some wisdom on that.
Kaye (00:27:52):
You have such good questions. I love this interview. I'm having so much fun. So taglines are a fun brand asset because they get seen a lot. Right? So they are probably going to show up on your savior, social media bio, or your, um, you know, they're going to show up often. So it makes sense to be intentional about it. So the first thing that you want to do is make sure you're using on brand language or on archetype language. So you're using words that speak to the emotional resonance that you're trying to create with people. And then the second thing to think about is what type of tagline that you want. So a tagline can promise something to your ideal client, so it can tell them what the outcome of working with you or your brand is going to be, or a prompt. A tagline can differentiate you from the competition. So can explain how you're different. And then another case that's maybe less used. But if you have kind of an obscure name for either your product or your overall brand, a tagline can also be a good supporting kind of like sub-headline of like clarity. This is what I actually do. I'm a brand strategist. If I, yeah.
Peter (00:28:59):
Can, uh, can I put you on the spot a little bit? Um, I'm, I'm not thrilled with my tagline and I've been working through it. Are you willing to coach me? This might be a disaster for me, but, um, so I have, um, I sort of backed into the, this podcast and how to brand it. I, you know, as a, as a person who's focused on impact, it's that like artist energy and, and oftentimes we get caught in like, I'm painting a masterpiece. It needs to be perfect. I can't, can't put it out into the world until it's perfect. And so, and you know, the result of that of course was years of procrastination on this idea. Um, and, and quite honestly, frankly, in my own sort of defense, like I didn't really know that I wanted to do this or needed to do this or that this was a part of me that I like was really inspired to do.
Peter (00:29:51):
Um, so through the encouragement of some friends, it was like, did you gotta get this out there? I have one friend who's the warrior archetype. And he's like, this was a Monday. I talked to him on a Monday. He's like, dude, you're getting this. Your podcast is launching by Friday. And I'm like, you know what, you're right. I need that. Like I said, I need that warrior to like, stand over me with a hammer, dude, you're going to get hit over the head if you don't do this. And so sure enough, I'm like, all right, I'm going to do this. And so what came to me at the time was PK experience because that I I'm a fan of Joe Rogan and his podcast. And so that's kind of what came out. But the tagline I realized is important because what does PK experience? Nobody knows who I am. I'm not, you know, Joe, Rogan's already somebody, so that that's helpful for him. So the tagline is important for me right now, the tagline is tapping into the minds of today's impact players, right? So it's in the right space because I'm pointing at the mine and pointing at transformation and pointing at impact to me, impact is a very powerful word that I, that resonates for me and my brand. What advice do you have on maybe taking that to another level? If I could.
Kaye (00:30:57):
Yes. Yes. Um, I would love to see you consider an outcome based tagline. Uh, so with a bit of clarity in there, cause like you said, your, your name is, it needs like some, it needs some supporting elements to it. Right? Cause it's not immediately clear it's um, it's essentially kind of like personally branded. Right. Um, and I love what you, I can't remember. I think it was before we started recording and we set the intention that this conversation was going to be life changing for somebody I'd love to see you incorporate that in your tagline. So something about changing lives, one conversation at a time or changing lives, through conversations with the entree or the people who are impacting the world. Something that speaks to that, that desired outcome that you're trying to provide.
Peter (00:31:49):
Gotcha. That makes sense. Um, outcome based. That's powerful. All right. I'm gonna I'll I'll noodle on that for a little bit. Thank you for that.
Kaye (00:31:58):
I know I was eligible.
Peter (00:32:01):
Definitely. Definitely. Did we get through the three tagline elements? Yeah, we did. You, you mentioned that, that, okay. Um, you also talk about brand strategy, um, and the four CS of brand strategy. And I want to make sure I understand the forest. Let's go over those real quick.
Kaye (00:32:19):
Yes. Um, and I'm the type of person. So forgive me. I may. So I'm the type of person who creates frameworks like every day. So let me, let me test my own knowledge, my own framework.
Peter (00:32:32):
I know I do the same thing and people will come back to me and say, Oh, you, you listed. And sometimes it's totally off the top of my head. Cause the magician
Kaye (00:32:40):
Archetypes,
Peter (00:32:40):
We'll see things tangibly and I'll go, Oh, it's three easy steps and they'll come to me a week later. I'm like, what was it?
Kaye (00:32:45):
I forgot that stuff. But I think I know what I'm so, so we'll dive into it. So I like to talk about four CS in terms of the core of your brine, like the nucleus of your brand. One of those seeds is the character. So this is the personality. This is the unique point of view that you're bringing to the market. This is a key point in differentiating your brand. Apart from all of the other ones, another one of the CS is your commitment. So what are you actually selling? What are you bringing to the market? What are you promising? Like what is the change or, um, outcomes like we're talking about with the taglines that you're pressing, this is the piece that gives people clarity on how you actually help. Cause there's a lot of people that are out there that are giving good ideas, but they're not clear on what they actually offer.
Kaye (00:33:36):
They don't tell us often enough and we don't know how to like take the next step with them. So that, that commitment is really important. Another piece that a lot of brands miss is the context that your brand lives in, meaning what is happening in the world right now that makes your brand so relevant, so necessary and the answer to people's problems. So there's like technology, that's shifting there's human, um, just awareness. That's shifting like all sorts of things are changing in the world. And the brands that are around today, aren't the same brands that were relevant 50 years ago. And you know, down the road 50 years from now, if you don't keep evolving with that context, your brand, isn't going to stay relevant. So that piece is really important as well. Um, and then the last piece that's really important is the credibility.
Kaye (00:34:27):
So what are the reasons to believe? Like why should somebody trust your commitment to them? Why should people like it's this is actually the left brain. So on the right brain side, we like the emotional side. We have the character of the brand. This is why I like you, the credibility pieces, like, okay, I like you, but are you actually going to deliver? So these are like the case studies that you bring to the market or the statistics or the like research studies that you point to that showed the significance and the validity of your work.
Peter (00:34:59):
Uh, I'm sure you're familiar with Simon Sinek and start with why. Yeah. This to me, the, the, the inside of it is the why the beliefs, the values. Why, why I like you, like you said, and then the what and the tangibles, which speaks to the logic side of the intelligence piece of the mind. Um, okay, cool. All right. I'm sort of building out this thing in my own head as to, uh, how to apply all of this. Um, alright. So I have a few friends right now who are, who are very successful entrepreneurs in their own. Right. But struggling with taking it to the next level, scaling it up and beyond. And they're having a hard time because as you add team to the picture, the archetype tends to get watered down. So what advice do you have on that? Cause I think, do you have a new, relatively newer program or a book or something about how to scale?
Kaye (00:35:56):
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for asking. And this has been my obsession. So like I said, my brain thinks in systems. So to me, it's obvious that your brand is a system. It's like, you have this maybe like generic idea and you put it through the filter of the brand and it should pop out as this very aligned, positioned piece of material. You know, whether that's an Instagram post or a podcast interview or whatever it is. So like, you need to always be putting everything through this filter of your brand. What I realized, especially when entrepreneurs kind of trans I mean the dollar amounts change, but when they're transitioning from being like a solo solo entrepreneur to directing a team, when it comes to their brand, a lot of them have been doing this, just kind of shooting from the hip or being, uh, what's the word, like, just intuitive about it.
Kaye (00:36:43):
So they're, they're the ones that are creating everything on behalf of their brand. And lo and behold, they find out that they're getting kind of burnt out or they're trying to delegate more of this work. And they're finding that they're the bottleneck in this process. So they are having to micromanage what's being created, or they're having to just like straight up, redo the work or rewrite the work. And I've found like the beautiful thing that you can put into play in your business as a scaling entrepreneur, our standards. And I know this isn't super sexy. So I named it my clarity code program, but the key is kind of what we've been talking about here. So as the visionary of your business, you first have to get clear on what your brand actually stands for. Like it has to get out of your brain. It can't be employed or deployed by other people in your business if it's stuck up here. So we have to get it out of your brain first. What does the brand stand for? Make some decisions about the standards and then, you know, put that in a format that your team can access. So with like all of my, one of my clients that go through this program, we create a, a brand source book that I call, I call it, I, which is essentially just a website of brand standards that their whole team I can visit and make sure that they're living up to the standards that have been set.
Peter (00:38:01):
Mmm, Mmm,
Kaye (00:38:04):
Sorry, let me just add on this really quickly theater. So like imagine if Harley Davidson relied on like one designer or one copywriter to express themselves in the world, or imagine if Nike did that, like, if they just had like this one, one creative genius that could be their brand, they would have never grown to the scale that they are now. And the reason that they've been able to grow is because they have standards in place.
Peter (00:38:27):
Yeah. There's, there's total clarity as to what the company stands for the values of the company. Um, so can we go a level deeper than that? So somebody they're talking about creating those standards, or perhaps do you have an example of a client that you've worked with, who's taken their archetype and then they've created a set of standards. Maybe we can get some tangibility to an actual case on that. Do you have something that comes to mind or that you're able to?
Kaye (00:38:52):
Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, I mean, I think about my favorite clients that have gone through this transition of like just themselves being the brand. So like I've worked a lot with, um, Scott Oldford who's in the online entrepreneurship space and he has scaled up and actually down, but up and down his team based on the needs of the business, but he's able to plug people in really easily. Cause he has this document that we've created this website essentially that tells people at a glance, here's what the brand is. Here's what our personality is down to the nitty gritty. So this is kind of the magic is like there's literally lists of words that he uses in his brand. And then lists of words that he doesn't like, these are the color codes that we use in the brand. Again, this sounds basic, but defect that it has on the business can be transformational, especially as you're bringing in more people. Because if you think about it, if you have three or four designers that can create awesome stuff on behalf of your brand, that all look like they're speaking in the same voice, you're going to get more output and hopefully more impact than if you're just relying on one person and you can scale that impact across lots of team members.
Peter (00:40:03):
I would drive people nuts with this kind of stuff, but like I literally just, um, we rolled out a new form for a speaker like yourself to fill out on my podcasts that you could go and say, here's, you know, a little bit more about me or whatever. And my assistant who created the form and everything, um, the subject line. So after you, the guest go and fill it out, it gets emailed to us. The subject line was like speaker details. And I'm like, I'm like, I, I told my sister, I'm like, I know, I know this is a pain in the ass, but like, can you please change that to impact player details? Like I want to, even though nobody's going to see it, I want to know when I receive it, like, Hey, this is somebody important. Who's ready to change the world. I want him to see it and go and have that same resonance to the words that we use, even on an internal level, because that stuff is going to bleed over to, you know, how, how he edits, how he writes, copy how he does it.
Kaye (00:41:01):
Yeah. Words are so, so important, especially, I mean, if you're, if you're putting out intellectual property into the world, name it, like they get your own, make it a branded asset, as opposed to it just being some idea that people can't grab onto and hold onto it. Yeah. So, so important.
Peter (00:41:20):
Do you have any other case studies that you'd like to share that, um, if we were to just zoom back and say anybody that kind of came into your influence and how you help them, it's helpful. I think it's helpful. Cause some of this stuff for people who aren't that more magician type archetype, it's hard for them to sink their teeth into this kind of stuff sometimes. So I feel like the, the tangible journey that you could share a client going through is helpful for somebody else. Do you have any other
Kaye (00:41:46):
Yeah, for sure. I'm working with probably one of my biggest teams, like actually right at this moment and uh, they are completely random. It's a trucking and logistics company, but they're massive, uh, on the West coast. So they have a really big team. So I'm working with the, the leadership team, the executive team to figure out what this brand is like, what the standards are and the thing that they're going to do that I think, uh, is the lesson or the example that I want to bring forward to people is once we figure out what the standards are within that core executive team, their plan is to send it out to all 200 of their employees and have them interpret the brand standards for themselves and their job. So it might be somebody who works in sales that reads it through and be like, Oh, okay. Like, so we're saying that, you know, every customer of ours should be treated like it's our only customer. Here's how that can actually come to life in my job, in my part of this larger puzzle that's happening. So I think this is important. It's like if you're in that scaling stage and if you have people it's not just like directing the brand at them, give them a voice in how it's actually going to be implemented into their part of being the brand.
Peter (00:43:05):
Right. Um, so that's interesting that you're working with a trunk trucking company and that what made me what came to me when you mentioned that was like a trucking co, like that's probably the least sexiest type of business out there. And so how do you put a brand archetype on top of that, where it's a more of a commodity where, where the market is, you know, or at least I have worked a lot of entrepreneurs where they are perhaps selling a commodity and they, in their mind, it's for everybody, everybody can use it. And so the archetype and alienating and repelling customers would be a big threat to what they think their potential opportunity is. Number one, but number two, do you, do you put a brand, a personality around a trucking company? And if so, what does that look like?
Kaye (00:43:56):
Yes. So I think the industries where like the average market value is more commodity-based the brand is even more important cause it it's, it's, what's going to create the Delta between what you can charge and what other people can charge. I mean, think about bottled water. We can get water out of a tap, but because bottled water companies have created different brands and they've created different messages around alkalinity or the source of the water or how it's packaged, we're willing to pay this whole different or this whole spectrum of pricing for the exact same product, probably. I mean the most commoditized product available and especially those of us in the information space, so much information is free. Like you can listen to this podcast for free. You could go to a YouTube and consume thousands of hours of content for free. So it's the brand that's going to create this Delta between like the average of what people expect to pay and then creating something beyond that. So for a trucking company, they're the Royal archetype. So it's all about order and structure and high quality and like removing any uncertainty from their client's experience. So we're going to be communicating that as a core brand message. So it's not just, Hey, we're going to move your stuff from this place to this place. It's how we're going to do it. That's going to make your life better. That will help attract more of the market. And then also give them the ability to charge more prices or higher prices
Peter (00:45:30):
That, uh, the Royal archetype was based on the, the leadership in.
Kaye (00:45:36):
Okay. Yeah. Yep. Totally. Based on the leadership and then also like what they've already been doing. So it's authentic to how they built their business. Like they've always gone after the largest customers. They've always been very, very interested in like systems and order and structure, which is a very Royal attribute. So yeah, it was the key was to find what was actually true about the company as a whole, and then make sure that it's being expressed better and more fully because it's, it's not right now, like the website just kind of like, Hey, we're a trucking company.
Peter (00:46:08):
Yeah, exactly. Um, interesting. So when you're talking about order and structure and systems and that kind of thing, um, I'm maybe putting a slightly different hat on here, which is more of like the Meyer-Briggs stuff, personality type there's, there's a great, um, uh, there's a thing called EOS entrepreneur operating system where they talk about, uh, the integrator and the visionary and how those two energies come together. Somebody has to set the vision, but that's usually the creative type and there is shiny object center and all that, but then you have the implementer. That's like, no, here's the strategy. Here's how we get there. Are there, are there holes in these archetypes from a brand perspective to where, Hey, the magician archetype is a theory and it's out there and everything, but you know what it needs structure and order, do I need to do wire hired any other architect for that matter need to marry itself in some way to provide more value in the, in the, in the cohesiveness of the entire brand? Does that make sense?
Kaye (00:47:05):
Yeah. So when you think about your own personality that we always have a shadow side, right? Like we have, we have the pitfalls that are unique to us. They're usually as a result of our strengths. So for the Royal who is interested in building a prosperous community and like structure, like it's there, it doesn't leave a whole lot of room for spontaneity and innovation and those types of things. So you have to make sure that you're not shooting yourself in the foot with, with your shadow side, essentially. Uh, and I do some work like in the archive research, I've identified what the shadow sides are like, what the weaknesses are, the greatest fears of each of the archetypes. So being aware of them and making sure that it's not something that's going to sink your business that said, I don't think it's something that you should try to bring forward as a major selling point in your brand. So like as the magician, it's probably either, you're not going to want to talk about how organized you are, if that's not your natural string. I mean, it might be that you have the system set up or you have somebody on your team that's helping you mitigate that, that shadow side or that weakness of yours. Uh, but it's not like a leading marketing message or brand message.
Peter (00:48:16):
Right. That makes sense. Um, does, does the archetype of the entrepreneur or the brand, sorry, does the brand archetype, does that mean that they're only going to talk to that type of architect? I mean, I know the answer to in this, but I want to hear what your response is. Does that mean that they're only going to attract their customers that are the same archetype and well, and then I have a follow up question,
Kaye (00:48:43):
Very common question. And the answer is no, I have worked with every archetype in helping them, uh, build brands, you know, me being the magician in this age. So the thing to remember is that we have elements of each archetype in us, uh, both as companies or as personal brands. So like I'm a mother. So I have an element of the caregiver in me. I am a washed up high school athlete. So I have that element of the hero in me. I went skydiving. So you could say that I have a element of the Maverick or entertainer. And so we all identify to a certain level with all of these archetypes. It's just using one as a tool to help you filter your communication and your expression of your brand into this.
Peter (00:49:29):
Yeah, I was gonna say there seems to always be a leading one. When you look at people who are, who know themselves, there seems to be a leading energy there for sure. Um, how do you, how, how does one archetype speak to another archetype? Maybe you were finding that your market, the majority of your market that you're wanting to connect to is a different archetype. How do you bridge the gap between the two?
Kaye (00:49:54):
I tend to just feel like you're, you need to stand in your strengths. I go back to the friend analogy. So you, as a brand, like as a brand identity, you need to be strong, certain and confident in who you are and the value that you offer. And no matter who you are, like what archetype your ideal clients are, they're going to resonate and be attracted to that message. Like I'm resonate. I resonate with some Maverick archetypes, even though that's the lowest on my list that I test for, because I appreciate their boldness. I think that their audacity is amazing. Um, so yeah, when people want to cultivate certain aspects of themselves, even if it's the lowest of the low for what they actually test for, they're going to be good. They're going to gravitate towards people that, that lead.
Peter (00:50:38):
Yeah. Actually what's coming to me right now is duh. Like if the more clear you are, perhaps in your magician archetype, the more somebody who's not like you may look to that and go, Oh, that's what I need. That's what I like. I want more of that. Uh, or vice versa. Like you said, maybe I need to be more spontaneous, take a little bit more adventure and change things up a little bit, get outside the mold. Um, that's, that's another one I'm going to, I get a lot of things to meditate on after this conversation. Um, I noticed you wore a, for those that who are only listening, cause at some point I will get the YouTube channel up and this'll be out. But for those that are just listening, you are a very dark shirt with little white. Spectrally like stars on that. And I'm assuming that's deliberate. Okay, good magician.
Kaye (00:51:25):
We just moved into our house in North Carolina and my husband I've been like furniture shopping we've we have a lot of furniture, but I'm like upgrading a few pieces and I was looking at a coffee table and it has like these geometric like metallic legs on it. And my husband's like, does everything have to be on furniture? Everything. Yes.
Peter (00:51:48):
Well, you have a beautiful set behind you as well. Is that, I mean the color palette and everything again, for those that aren't seeing it, there's a dark, uh, paint wall paint on the background, a beautiful painting, dark green, uh, plants, all of that.
Kaye (00:52:04):
Yeah. I think that one of the best things that people can do is like almost just give themselves an audit of like every single place where they show up. If you're showing up on video, it makes sense to be intentional about what your set looks like and what you look like. If you're showing up in text, then it makes sense to pay attention to the words that you're using. You always want to be elevating the experience that you're communicating and providing.
Peter (00:52:27):
Yeah. And I find that when you do get in tune with your archetype and you surround yourself in that environment that speaks to you, it only naturally continues to inspire you and evoke more of that archetype out of you. So
Kaye (00:52:38):
Totally. Yeah. So the, yeah, the painting is inspired by the Northern lights. Sorry.
Peter (00:52:44):
I was going to say, I knew there's a story behind some of the other stuff behind you. That's cool. There's a smaller painting too. Is that, or is that still part of the bigger pain
Kaye (00:52:51):
That one is, uh, has kind of like that galaxy type of feel, which I've drawn to as well.
Peter (00:52:57):
Are you an artist on the side too? Do you, do you have a hobby that
Kaye (00:53:00):
I dabble? Yeah. Yep. Those two were painted by me actually. Very cool. But yeah,
Peter (00:53:09):
What's the difference between you're the magician as a leading archetype and then the Sage is a secondary
Kaye (00:53:14):
I, yes, I started at ATT as the lead magician and a secondary stage. I just switched it in my mind, which nobody else is going to notice, but I've switched to it in my own understanding my brand. I lead with stage now. I feel more comfortable in the Sage archetype, but there's still a lot of magician that shows up in my brand as well. Right. What's the difference between the two. So Sage is all about universal wisdom and truth. It's all, it's like the fact finder and the teacher, uh, and then the magician is all about change and transformation. It often relies on methods that can even be understood. It's things that are just incredible, all worthy. A lot of healers tend to be magicians. Yep.
Peter (00:54:01):
Hmm. Who have been some of your key influences in your journey and understanding this you've mentioned a few already, but do you do have any other, um, mentors that have helped you along the way?
Kaye (00:54:13):
Oh, that's such a good question. Um, when it comes to the archetypes, I, so I haven't been inspired so much by like say another magician archetype. I haven't really leaned into that. I kind of live to the, uh, lesson that I speak, like look inward before you ever look outward, but I'm a, I'm a curator by nature. So I have been plagued or I don't know what the word is, but I have been struck with the epidemic that whenever I'm walking through the grocery store or through the mall or flipping through a magazine, I'm seeing archetypes, like I've read every single brands that I run into. I'm like classifying and seeing it. So I've been a constant curator and collector of inspiration for all of the archetypes in that way. And then I just get inspired when people are just like, so shameless and unapologetic about who they are. Cause I've been cultivating that I think for my whole adult life. So whenever people have that spark, that certainty, I get a lot of inspiration from that.
Peter (00:55:15):
Yeah. You drive your husband, not so I'm sure.
Kaye (00:55:20):
Yes. Yep. I have a folder called good idea. Fairies on, on my desktop that my husband coined he's like, Oh, just, just another good idea. Fairy flies in flies out.
Peter (00:55:33):
What, what, uh, what type of impact are you, do you seek to make in the world?
Kaye (00:55:38):
I want to help more people answer that question of who am I really? What is my identity? And then how do I express that fully to the world? So I'm on a mission to find the tools, find the stories that help people unlock that within themselves and, and express that okay.
Peter (00:55:59):
For somebody that finds out what archetype that they are, um, in that, in that, uh, purpose that you just mentioned, um, sometimes this is maybe a younger person who's just beginning to better understand themselves. Oftentimes it might be somebody who midlife crisis they're, you know, they're burnt out at their job or, you know, they realize, Oh my gosh, I've been, uh, I've been an attorney or I'm a doctor because my parents wanted that, but I love to play the guitar. And I'm like, that's really where my heart is. And so they pivot and they make these changes. So let's say they identify what their archetype is. Is there, is there any advice or wisdom that you can share on now that I know what my archetype is? What am I supposed to do with that? Like how do you answer that question of what is your purpose?
Kaye (00:56:45):
Oh, that's a fantastic question. Um, I think it's one that's been unraveling over time. For me personally, it's something where, when you commit to express, like commit to expression, if you commit to creating in this life, I get really excited about the ripple effect of that. Like everybody around you is going to start to see that you're living this like certain life and you're contributing in a positive way. Um, I think that it's a little bit easier to see in retrospect, um, after you've done a little bit of that creating a little bit of that experimentation, like I said, when I first got started in online world, I was a hot mess. I was trying to be the lover and I was trying to be the hero and I was trying to be the Royal and none of it was resonating. And when I discovered who I actually am and who I am at my strongest, I've been able to create so much more and hopefully, you know, leave this legacy of, of helping people figure themselves out in their brands out. So I think that it becomes more clear as you, as you lean into who you actually are.
Peter (00:57:51):
There's that, um, famous quote that, uh, it always gets attributed to Einstein. I have no, like so many things get attributed to Einstein. I have no idea if he actually said it or not, but it's, it's smart nonetheless. And it says, uh, something to the effect that everybody's born a genius, but if you're a fish judges that's ability, but to climb a tree, you're going to live your whole life thinking you're stupid. And I think that the value that, that you're making the impact that you're helping people with is understanding, Oh, I'm a fish I'm meant to swim. I'm not, you know, but the world, you know, the world being maybe your parents or a spouse or a market, or is saying, Oh, we want, we need a, a monkey. We want you to climb the tree. But if you're a fish or a fish you've got to swim and how miserable life is when you're cast into the wrong character in the wrong story and how, what you do is help you understand, Oh, I'm a, I'm a protagonist in this completely other adventure over here. And I need to, to shift and how rich your life can be when you really tap into your unique gifts and how you give that to the world. Um, so we're going to tie it up with a nice, pretty little bow on that. Now it's any other, any other, uh, parting words of wisdom. And at the very least, can you please tell people where to go, to take the archetype quiz and to connect with you anywhere else that you'd like on online
Kaye (00:59:18):
Have experienced in every interaction that I've had with people and entrepreneurs that we all have a unique genius in our brain. So if you're feeling like that fish, that's trying to climb the tree, it's just a chance that you're doing the wrong thing or are trying to focus in the wrong way or trying to channel your energy in the wrong way. So trust that you are awesome and a genius and figure out how to express that genius. And if you want to learn more about perhaps which architect you are or what they all stand for some examples of how to express them, I check out my website at [inaudible] dot com
Peter (00:59:55):
K putnam.com. And, uh, just to make sure it's very clear, like, not even, even if you're not an into business, there's value in taking this quiz to better understand sort of your, your archetype. Cause it carries over to however you, you know, if you're a homemaker, if you're a, if you're a dentist, if you're a, it doesn't matter, like you still are bringing that energy to what you're doing. So again, thank you, Kay. This has been awesome conversation. Uh, appreciate the starry night shirt that you wore for the occasion. I wore my black shirt cause that's very magician of me. Uh, anyway, thank you again for a great call. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun. All right.