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Jan's website - JanHargrave.com

Peter (00:00:00):
You're listening to the PK experience podcast, where I tap into the minds of today's impact players, so that you can raise your game and become a greater impact player yourself. My name is Peter King. I'm the host of the show. And man, I've got a treat for you today. I sit down with a very lovely, the very charming, uh, Jan Hargrave. Jan is a body language expert. She's from Louisiana. She brings all of her Louisiana charm to the cohort. And, uh, man, it was a fascinating discussion because she just was rattling off all of these, um, cues, all these visual cues that you give off that I give off that we all give off in our body language that helps you read what somebody true intent is. And it helps whether you're, you know, sitting at the negotiating table in a business setting, uh, whether you're in sales or whether you're dealing with relationships.
Peter (00:00:47):
Does he really like me? Is, does she really like me? Does she not like me? Does he not like me? Um, Jan has been an expert, a consultant for attorneys in the courtroom so that they can pick the right jurors. Um, she's also written many, many books on body language, uh, in all of these different facets of our lives from business to relationships, et cetera, even a body language in for poker players. So she knows her stuff forwards and backwards. Like I said, it's a fascinating call. Um, get something to take notes with because Jan just drops a ton of wisdom on it on this call. I am very excited to share this with you, but real quick before I do, if you could go to iTunes and download this episode and or multiple episodes and leave a review, that would be phenomenal. I would really appreciate that I'm looking to grow this podcast and get it out to even more listeners. So that would really mean a lot to me. I appreciate it with that. Let's dive into the call here. I am with body language experts, Jan Hargrave. All right. I'm here with the body language expert. Jan Hargrave. How are you Jan?
Jan (00:01:53):
I'm doing good. Peter. How are you doing
Peter (00:01:56):
Great. It's such a pleasure to speak with you. I, every time I hear you speak, it kind of lights me up cause, uh, just, I don't know if it's the hub Southern hospitality or what, but you're such a joy to speak with. So again,
Jan (00:02:07):
Oh, thank you so much. And we met a couple of times, so it's good to speak with you over the phone too. Yes. And yeah, I do body language sometimes. I think I've done it so much that I can even figure out someone's body language while I'm on the phone with them. Even though I write this, sometimes if I talk to them long enough at the end of the conversation, I can figure out if they're, if they were leaning forward, they were leaning back. If their feet were up on the desk for quite a while, I've been doing it. Peter, have you studied it some
Peter (00:02:37):
A little bit? I mean, I've, I've certainly seen your stuff. I've seen other people, um, you know, and just, um, with all the political breakdowns and you know, right now, Michael Jackson has been in the news and his accusers lying, are they telling the truth? And uh, so I'm fascinated by the entire hire thing, but yeah, I know a little bit, but um, I don't know that I can tell you if you're sitting up or not.
Jan (00:03:02):
Yeah. It's an interesting science. And then it said, Michael Jackson, we, you can even, we can talk about even R Kelly. That was an interesting subject to watch tune body language. Yeah. During his interview and getting so defensive and sometimes talking in the third person that always interest us. Well, the way that I got started in this, you know, remember I'm from Louisiana. So you do get that Southern hospitality. I hope when you speak with me, but when I was in graduate school and in college, I was in a psychology class and had the fun professor who would walk around different days and saying to some of us, he'd say, I know what you're thinking, and I know what you're thinking and what you're thinking of doing that to us. And one day looked at me and he said, Jan, I know what you are thinking.
Jan (00:03:45):
You know? And I thought to myself, well, wow, how can that old fool, nobody I'm thinking this has always wasn't too pretty. So he told us about body language and he, and I said, you mean, I can study the way that a person will move his arms or eyes or shoulders or legs and kind of figure that person out. And he said, of course you can. And so I got so interested in the subject that I began doing graduate research in the field of body language. Just everything I could get my hands on. I was kind of like you, Peter, I would research it. I would study it and then I would read it. And so I did my dissertation in that field and then developed a class originally, what I had done is developed a class for attorneys. And that was all, you know, years ago, it was only attorneys who we interested in body language, but nowadays I think it doesn't matter what someone does for a living, you know, gotta be a little bit interested in how to figure out another person.
Jan (00:04:36):
But when it started, we were helping these attorneys to read people better, to pick more favorable juries for them. And so from that class, and from the years of its existence, within businesses started figuring out we need to bring this information to business because deception gestures in the courtroom will still be deception gestures in the business world or honesty, gestures in the courtroom are still the honesty gestures in the business world. So then from that, I just transitioned to mainly training people in industry on how to tell if someone was lying or how to tell if someone was telling the truth or how to tell someone was confident or someone was nervous. And it just expanded and never thinking when I researched did though, how valuable and how interested people would be in the subject area.
Peter (00:05:25):
Oh, the whole notion of being able to decipher what somebody's thinking, you're saying, uh, nobody wants to be dis deceived, you know? And so that, that, that notion of being able to know what else, somebody else else's thinking, it's very enticing for sure.
Jan (00:05:42):
Yes. Well, and the thing is, is, you know, once you know the basics, you know, there's an outline of body language. You know, these are gestures that people do. It may lie. These are gestures that people do when they tell the truth. These are gestures that people do when they're confident. And then after a while, you know, you absorb and these gestures. And then when you're in an ordinary conversation, you won't think about it all the time, which you may see someone do a gesture to remember, Oh, I remember from my research or maybe listening to Jan, but this means deception because people often ask me, they say, gee, and do you ever not do it? And so I usually say, yeah, I don't think I'm doing it all the time. You know, then I'm reading someone else when they're talking to me, but you know what?
Jan (00:06:21):
I probably am doing it all the time. And I don't even realize that I'm doing it because yesterday I was doing, um, I did a TV show here in Houston, yesterday. It was on national napping day. And so I did a show on, I know it meant cause it was a day after daylight savings, John. So I did a show on sleep position then how you sleep with your maid and what does it say about the relationship? But after the meeting, I was in the waiting room and I was talking to the manager of the TV station and not knowing that I was doing it. He was just speaking. And while he was speaking us, all one gesture of dishonesty, I didn't stop him and say, look, I think you just lied to me. I just kind of just, you know, of course let it go because I don't always stop people and say, you know, you just said something that I don't think is correct. I just let them go. It meant something,
Peter (00:07:08):
Oh, it's fascinating. Uh, is mine. So what, what does, uh, the different sleep positions mean?
Jan (00:07:18):
Well, you know, we have people who face each other when people who are back to back to each other, with people who sleep in the King position King position, where we would be where someone would be kind of spread out on the bed and you know, the more spread out you are in the bed. The more it means that you want to be the King of the castle, the three, the three things you need to remember is key. People feel it like Kings sleep on their back. Why people sleep on their side and rich people sleep on their stomach. Is that funny?
Peter (00:07:43):
Now, is there, has there been studies to show that
Jan (00:07:47):
I don't know whether, I guess it's all from anthropology could have been with animals studies originally, but that's kind of the old thing. And too, it says that the person who's more in charge of the family, the ruler of the family seats closest to the door of the bedroom, because that goes back to the old caveman thinking that you want to protect everyone else in the house. So then therefore you would be closest to the door. But one thing we found too, was that when you sleep on your left side, you're more likely to dream of nightmares is that's your left brain kind of getting all the work and the weight. And when you sleep on the right side, on your right side, you're more going to have a fun, fun, dream, a creative dream. And imagine if dreams know it gets, it gets to where it is wild and crazy. And people often say to me, they say, or to my husband, they say, how could you ever be married to that woman? Because everything you say, she probably, I know poor thing and I do use it all. I don't think I'm using it on him, but every now and then he was saying something and I'll say, well, Cecil, I think you just lied to me. Jan, don't use your information on me, but I've taught him so much. He probably knows some of it now beat it.
Peter (00:08:52):
So if you want to make more, more just lying on your stomach, would that, is there, can you,
Jan (00:09:00):
You know what that would mean that we would be protective of all of your earnings? You know, you'd be kind of hoovering over everything that you have the mentality of why someone would sleep on the stomach, but it was just an old ancient adage that they would say that people will feel like they're Kings of the castle, sleep on their back because they want to man spread and take up more room and people who are wise typically sleep on their side and people who are rich, usually sleep on their stomach somewhat on their stomach.
Peter (00:09:27):
That's fascinating. Um, so you talked, you talked about the different gestures line, gestures, truth, gestures, confidence, gestures. What are the, what are like, give us like the brief overview of the outline.
Jan (00:09:38):
Okay. Uh, and too, you know, when I tell you a gesture that says that someone could be being deceptive, never think that just one gesture by itself can stand alone. If I would be asking you questions to see if, you know, maybe you were involved in some kind of crime. I would re ask a question many different times in many different ways to see if every time I asked that question, I would still get one of the deception gestures. So what we have found from the years of research is this. And it has to do with the brain function. It's a psychological effect, but you know, our rights out of our brain is our creative and imaginative side of our head. So we, we laugh and we dance from the right side of the brain. Our left brain is, is the history and the science and the math.
Jan (00:10:21):
And it's the analytical side of the brain. So when someone is being deceptive more, so their gestures will be done with their left hand because the left hand is controlled from the right side of the head. Cause every, every movement I do on my left side of my body, that's controlled from my, from my right brain. So when I lie the right brain, making up stories, telling a blind, so therefore I'm more so use my left hand while I talk about that law, if people are telling the truth more, so they will gesture with their right hand because the right hand is controlled from the left side of the brain, which is the analytical and the factual side. One of the first things that we've also found that when people are being deceptive, there are three major motions. They do, they'll take the lip index finger and they'll tend to touch a part of their face when they're telling you something that's not really true or, or that's correct.
Jan (00:11:08):
And the first one is taking the left index finger and rubbing up and down on the left side of the nose. Typically what they do, they go up twice on the left side of the nose and then they bend the finger and then they come out twice under that left nostril. So, you know, you've seen someone say, and they'll rub the nose and say, yeah, you look real, real good. And all this time, they're probably not telling you the truth. But the background behind that is we tend to bring a hand towards our nose and mouth because we want to cover, what's coming out of our mouth, kind of concealing that information when you were a child and you said something you were that you shouldn't have said, you took your hands and you kind of push the information back in your mouth. You're like, Oh, I can't believe I said that.
Jan (00:11:50):
The same thing that when we're lying, that hand tends to come over the mouth, but now we're more sophisticated. And we ended up rubbing the nose instead. And the other key factor about rubbing the nose physiological effect is that every time you tell a lie, you get a tingling sensation in your nose. And because of it, you feel as though you have to rub it every time, no matter what nationality or who you are, it's always going to be that way. No matter what nationality someone is, the left hand, the left hand is always going to be controlled from the right side of the hand. Always. So rubbing the nose, I'm sorry,
Peter (00:12:24):
Your blood. I think I learned from you that, yeah, it's something to do with your, your blood stuff.
Jan (00:12:30):
Kind of like, cause a bubble it's kind of like a little bubble effect in the nose and then still twitching. And then you feel like you have to rub it and also rubbing the nose goes back to the Pinocchios bit. Cause good. You've seen all these ads where someone they thought maybe was lying and they had a picture of the person and the nose was extended. I think they had a picture of both on time magazine, years and years ago of Richard Nixon. And that if you, you can research and find, but the noses really extended. Maybe there was even one of bill Clinton years back too on maybe a time magazine also taking the left hand and rubbing the eye accessibly, the left arm. So taking your left hand, rubbing your left eye excessively tends to give a message that says do not see very clearly what I'm saying because I am not being fully truthful with you.
Jan (00:13:15):
And the third one is taking the left hand and touching the left ear. And when someone excessively touches the left ear, while they're talking, they're seemingly thinking to themselves, do not hear very clearly what I'm saying, because I am not being very truthful with you. And the reason that a person touches the eye or the ear, remember it has to be left hand and has to be touching the left eye or touching the left ear. People do that and touch these two areas because they're trying to distract you from the information coming out of their mouth. You know, they're thinking that when they line, maybe they touch the eye, you'll be more so looking at them, rubbing their eye, then really focusing on the words that are coming out of the mouth. And when they touch the ear too, they're doing it so that you would look there and not looking at the mouth and focusing on the words that come out of the mouth.
Peter (00:14:03):
Fascinating
Jan (00:14:04):
Gated. Is it complicated?
Peter (00:14:06):
It certainly, it can be. I mean the more information you put out there, the more you, you know, self conscious of like, well, what am I doing with my hands? And,
Jan (00:14:16):
And then Peter too, you know, if you think about the background behind it and the science, you know, cause I don't want to tell people, you know, you just touch your nose. It means you're lying. Think about all the reasons why you touch your nose. And in one is that you're nervous about the information coming out of your mouth. You're touching your nose because it's kind of itching because of this cycle what's going on inside your body and the temperature of your, of your face when you lie and think about why you're. So it's not like people just throwing up this information and say, when they touch the eye, they're lying. There's some science to that. And there's some reference to why someone would do that. And there many others, you know, an easy way to kiss someone in a lie is a pretend yawning. It's okay to do a real Yon, but how much do you ever want someone to do a pretend Dion?
Peter (00:15:00):
Oh, I caught my son out on that all the time.
Jan (00:15:04):
You did use it. Anytime someone is trying to cover the mouth, it probably trying to cover information that is about to come out of the mouth because there's no sense that people excessively touch their face. When they're talking people is excessively touch their face when they're speaking, because they're nervous about what they're saying to you. So think about newscasters on a TV news news hour. If you look at them carefully, they're very trained. They never ever, ever touched their face. The girls would never touch their hair. The guys would never touch their tie or arrange their jacket because they're trained to get you believe their story. They just talk with you. Cause all these other things are distractions. They're, you know, they're just nervous things that people do when they touch too much. And so it doesn't look like someone that is, that is as confident as they would be.
Jan (00:15:50):
If they're just talking and not fooling with their hair or their clothing, these little bullying, things that people do, their clothing, these are called displacement gestures, displacement gestures, people who always are fixing their jacket or people who are pulling on imaginary land of their clothing or someone just pretending to scratch a forearm. You know, someone's just kind of scratching a norm and you know, the arm doesn't itch cause they're doing it just every now and then when they're talking that that's a displacement gesture and it's a sign of nervousness about the situation and that they would be lying, but they're nervous and a little bit uncomfortable and they're doing that to soothe themselves.
Peter (00:16:31):
But that's a big, that's a big difference. One person being nervous versus a actually trying to be.
Jan (00:16:37):
Yes. Right? Well, the thing would be that you would re ask a question. We look for clusters of gestures, predominantly three gestures. So if I was trying to see if you were being deceptive, you know, I would keep asking you questions and questions. And maybe when I want to know some, one thing about a crime I'd want to see every time I'd asked you about that one certain thing you would give me one of the deception gestures, because I mean, I'm just giving like three or four, there are hundreds of them there's even in sentence formation, you know that we can kind of tell if someone's telling us the truth or not, but you would make sure that you would ask different questions and look for clusters of gestures. And, um, does not just one gesture can indicate that someone's being deceptive, but I do watch for it.
Jan (00:17:22):
If I'm talking with you and while you're talking with me, you would touch your nose. I would definitely definitely make note of it in my mind and maybe use it later to reference something that we were talking about at that time. So, so don't, don't let go of just, yeah, don't let go of just one gesture. If you see it, just keep it, keep it in mind that they did that gesture while you were asking them maybe about a sale or maybe about a negotiation or, you know, make sure that you would notice that basically you're an evidence, right? That that's a good way to say it. That's a very good way to say it. And then when people are being honest, most of the gestures are done with the right hand. And usually it's the right hand cause the right hand remembers control from the left side of the hand.
Jan (00:18:04):
So if someone has to, just, when they're honest, a lot of times they'll bring their right hand fingers, widely spread and place it on the chest. You know, by, you know, you've seen someone put the hand, the rhino in the chest, didn't say to you while I, you know, I had a great time speaking with you and they're being very honest and they're being very sincere. It's not as though we're doing the pledge because in the pledge of allegiance, our fingers gather in the honesty, gestures of fingers, a wide spread wider port. So you understand the difference of Peter, right? The fingers.
Jan (00:18:36):
Okay. So in the pledge of allegiance, our fingers are together over our heart in the pledge of allegiance. But in the honesty gesture, our fingers are spread out in, placed over our heart. You get the difference. You got you. So, so spread out fingers over the heart is honesty. Fingers typed together over the heart is what we do when we say the pledge of allegiance. Gotcha. You got me, got me, got me. And um, maybe it'd be good to, to, to let people know some signs of confidence. That'd be great that people would do one big one. That's easy to spot. And that's easy for someone to use would be the, the stapling gesture of the hand, whenever there's a people gesture. And that would be the fingertips put together. Not as though they're praying it has to be a looser formation of fingertips together.
Jan (00:19:25):
It's always going to be a sign of confidence. So if I'm speaking with you and my fingers are every night and then come to a stapling gesture, then it usually is saying that I'm confident with what I'm saying. And the thing to remember is this, when people are confident with what they're saying, their steeple gesture is at chest level. And when people are confident with what they're listening to, there's people, gesture is down in lap level. So if you're talking with me and I'm just sitting there and I'm listening, but yet my, my main, my thumbs are together in a steeple or maybe all my fingers are together and stable. That means I am. I'm confident with what you're telling me. Do you understand the difference to kind of get the difference?
Speaker 3 (00:20:05):
I do. What happens with somebody doing this people like in front of their mouth?
Jan (00:20:10):
Well, I know I've seen that in a meeting where they'll lean forward and they'll kind of put this table in front of their mouth. Yes. The higher, the steeple is the more that they would be wanting to say something at that moment, but they're kind of like not knowing when's the right time to say it. Cause it it's a little bit, it could be combative when they're doing it that high in front of their mouth. When they're sitting at a table, leaning forward,
Speaker 3 (00:20:35):
Confident about what I'm thinking about, but it's not my turn to speak
Jan (00:20:39):
Right then. Yeah. That's what it is. That's what it is. So that's an interesting question. Cause the thing to, to get the true analysis and definition of a gesture, cause you know, we'll say, okay, as Steve will, they must be confident. But to get the true definition of a gesture, you have to try to quickly recall what types of gestures preceded, the one that you're trying to analyze. So if I'm watching you speak and I noticed that you do with people, then I must quickly think to myself, what did Peter do before he steepled? And maybe I recall that you gave me several positive gestures before you, you answered my question. Maybe you gave me continuous eye contact. I mean, that's a given in body language. Maybe your body started leaning forward. So that shows that you're interested in body language. And then you did a steeple gesture.
Jan (00:21:26):
So in this series of three, it would let me know that you feel very confident with what I'm saying and that you will probably go along with what I've just proposed. But now what's the opposite of that. Maybe I'm asking you about or talking with you about a subject area. And I noticed that you did a steeple, but this time I noticed you gave me two negative gestures. Part of that steeple, perhaps as we were talking, you kept glancing at your watch and glancing at your watch and it's just you and I. So that has given me a message right there that you're ready to quit talking with me. And then maybe after you glance at your watch, you cross your arms in front of your body and I could no longer see your hand. So it was a tight arm crossing and then you would have done a steeple.
Jan (00:22:06):
So what's happening here is that you have two negative gestures prior to your steeple. They'll looking at the watch, the tightly arms crossed without the finger, the hand showing. And then you would have done a Siebel in this instant instance, they would let me know that you feel very confident in telling me no. And that you would not go along with what I just proposed. So the wisest thing for people to understand when they're trying to learn body language it's as though they're, they're almost learning another language. You know, we speak English and we speak French. So why not learn to speak this thing called nonverbal communication? And when I teach it, I mainly teach American body language. What I still teach at the university of Houston. And of course we offer classes in every different cultural body language you can think of because if you're negotiating with someone of a different nationality of you, then you have to make sure that you understand what some of their gestures are because maybe some of our gestures in us are not the same as their gestures in another culture, but predominantly every we know in United States, people will use American body language to negotiate.
Peter (00:23:11):
Gotcha. Mouthful. No, it's. I mean, when people talk about communication being whatever the percentage is, 75% non verbal with this type of information, you can clearly see how much information we're actually taking in that's nonverbal. Right. That makes a huge difference. And I would obviously, if you're, if you're in a business such situation, if you're dealing with you're negotiating and somebody's giving you negative gestures, um, let's talk a little bit about how you can steer that to something that's, uh, you know, if you're, you're, you're picking up that, that person's not really on board with what saying how do you, um, can you get them to be more aligned with what you're saying? Or how, how can you read that in an adjustment?
Jan (00:23:52):
Well, one thing I think I'm thinking of two things. When you ask me that question, let's say that you are negotiating with someone and their arms are kind of be crossed in front of their body to get them to really think like, you're your thinking. And to open up to what you're suggesting, you would almost have to get them to uncross, but it's easy to do it. And you do it by, by different maneuvers. One way to get them to uncrossed would be to try to place something in their hand, whether it's a document or a cup of coffee, because if I have to receive something from you, I would have to uncross my arms. Correct. And it says in body language that the more open the upper part of a person's body is the more receptive they are to the information that that you're talking about.
Jan (00:24:32):
So one way would be to try to change their physiology and try to get them to move somewhat, to make them open up, to become more receptive to what you are thinking. And another way would be to mirror their body language. But when I, when I coach people, I try to tell people, never mirror the negative body language that you're getting from another. I would never mirror you. You know, if you're tightly cross legs quietly, try to cross dorms. I would try to break you from that crossing first. And then I would start to mirror some of the positive gestures that I noticed that you're doing. So let's say that you started rubbing your chin and rubbing the chin, you know, slowly rubbing the chin back and forth is an evaluation gesture. So if I noticed that you were doing that and maybe in a few minutes, I'd want to do it too, but you have to be careful so that the person doesn't know that you're mirroring them.
Jan (00:25:18):
And the key to being careful and doing it discreetly is that you would add a gesture before you would do the mirroring. Just so if you started rubbing your chance, I wouldn't do that right away. Maybe I would take a ballpoint up and maybe I would start writing a note and then perhaps I'd sit back and then I'd rub my chin. So you always have to add one gesture before you mirror the gesture that the other person is doing. So I advise people only mirror, positive gestures that you notice if they're leaning forward and you want to lean forward, that's good. But, um, I would never mirror tightly crossed or in person because it's going to too much, give them favor to keep sitting in that position. So try to move them around. Or even if you have to get away from your desk and come around and have the conversation with them, try to make the motion, you know, make them do some kind of motion.
Jan (00:26:04):
You do it. Also one thing that sometimes men do, you know, if you place both your hands behind your head, Peter, let's say you're sitting back and you're go. Like you're stretching you place both hands behind your hands. That that's a confidence gesture, but it's too strong adjusted to do with only a few people in a room it's equivalent to someone having his feet up on the desk while you're talking with them. So I would hate to be interviewed by someone who sat in their chair with their hands behind their head and had their feet up on the desk at the same time. I mean, that's pretty powerful. Those two positions, right? So, but what I tell people and mostly guys, if I'm coaching a guy, I say, if someone is doing that to you, where their hands are behind their head and you want to get them to stop doing it, it's a, it's kind of abrupt and it's crude, but I would advise a man to do it right back to another man doing it to him. Women don't do it. Use Dan women would not Miro it either. But for a guy, let's say you're in a meeting and a guy keeps sitting like that with you, maybe to get him to quit sitting that way with his hands behind his head, you could do it for a few minutes and let him get the feel of how it feels to have someone doing that more. They're talking with them,
Peter (00:27:12):
Just a bit of a challenge, the headbutt,
Jan (00:27:15):
Right? There's a bit of a tangent. A lady can't do it, but the lady could get a man to quit doing it by handing him a document because they bite hand you a document. You'd have to take release your hands from mine, your head. So, so easy. It's a confidence gesture, but it's too strong. It's okay. In a room of a hundred people. But if it's a room of just two people, it's too strong, a gesture to do for confidence.
Peter (00:27:37):
That's interesting that context. Cause it's cause you're taking up space, right? Is that the idea is right,
Jan (00:27:42):
Because that was another thing, right? It made me think about cause cause the size of space you think you need around, you can let her another one know how powerful you feel that you are. And for a minute, Amanda kind of comes easy because a man can sit in a chair in a meeting room and let's say there are two empty chairs on the side of him. He can place his arms on the two chairs on the side of him. And he didn't like that for hours. And no one will think ill of it, but he's giving a message right there. He's saying, I need all this space. Don't come sit back close to me because I need all this space because I'm the one in charge of this meeting room. And sometimes when I coach women, I say, you know, for a woman, we get into meetings and we sit really non-confrontational.
Jan (00:28:21):
We cross our legs and we cross our arms. See women's saying that little ball. And because we seen that little ball, we feel that, I mean, other people feel that they can kind of take advantage of the conversation. So I tell ladies, you know, you have to put your shoulders back. You have to gesture a little bit larger than maybe you normally would to give the aura that you're meeting a little bit more space while you're leading this certain meeting. You can also give that aura by spreading your books in front of your desk a little bit further than you would need instead of keeping them all crunched together, just cause size is equal size of space. You need around you is equivalent. This size of power you feel you have. And a good reference would be if you saw three limousines coming down the freeway and one is larger than the other two, you naturally think the most important person is in the largest of the three.
Jan (00:29:07):
So, you know, kind of related that way when you come into a room and you know, the way that you sit and you know, and, and two crossed arms in front of the body, you look, I mean, it's kind of like you're, you're, you're, you're belittling yourself. Cause it's think of a high school girl walking down the hallway, clutching her textbooks to her chest. I mean, how insecure can that look? So people who stay with their arms crossed and stay kind of tiny, it's kind of, it's almost as if they're crumbling and when people see that you're crumbling, that's when they feel they can take advantage of you. So as much as you can, you put your little back and you can kind of talk with people and kind of bring your hands a little bit to you or bring your hands away from you giving the aura that, well, I need all this space. Cause I'm the one in charge of this meeting make sense.
Peter (00:29:54):
That makes a ton of sense. It makes a ton of sense. It isn't that isn't that, um, rooted sort of in our caveman, like, uh, biology of protecting our organs. We want to curl up into a ball and
Jan (00:30:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fight or flight gun syndrome, but you're you're right. You know that we come this way because we're frightened at the time. And so we're going to cross our arms in front of us, but it's not good that someone does. And you know, what's another thing when we study male and female gender differences in body language that people can always remember. This men do not mind having conversations side by side. I can watch two men at an airport for an hour, never even look at each other, but have a wonderful, wonderful conversation. So men don't mind having conversations side by side, but women like to have a conversation with you and make sure that they see your face. So woman likes to be in front of you while they're talking. They want to see your eyes. I want to see your, your smile and more so, um, it had always been thought that women were better listeners than men, but women are not better listeners than men is just that women give more nonverbals when they are listening.
Jan (00:31:02):
Because when a woman is listening, she was sometimes not her head and maybe she'll smile back men more. So stay in, what's called a neutral position where their head doesn't move and they don't give too many nonverbal. So when I coach me and I say, sometimes if you're having a meeting with just women in there, you can nod your head every night. And then, and then often coach women and say, women, you cannot nod your head all the time because they'll think that you agree with everything they're saying. But I mean, so sometimes a woman will leave a meeting with a man and someone will say, well, how did the meeting go? And she'll say, I don't know. I never got any non verbals from him. So, so a man has to kind of be careful to do that. And another thing with the nodding is this, when you were in agreement, you normally go twice. You're like, you know, you had kind of goes up and down a little bit when you're in agreement, but when you're ready for someone else to shut up, you know that you nod your head three times. You're like, when you want them to shut up, you go, yeah, we got like, we got like with talk and Jan, we got it. We got it. Two times means, Oh yeah, I agree at three times mean, okay, you need to be quiet now so that I can talk, okay,
Peter (00:32:09):
I have a theory on this, but I want, I'd like your input on it first. What, why do men look not look at each other? Why do they, um, both face forward when they're communicating
Jan (00:32:22):
Or more, more, more thinking about the outcome, you know, that they want to, they want to achieve. And they want to go forward where a woman is more concerned about the relation that she's creating during that negotiation. They want to see the outcome. So they don't have a need to feel like they have to win. That's okay. You know what? Once we understand that about male and female behavior, but some people who don't understand it they'll think, well, this man never listens to what I'm saying, but he is listening, but he's not thinking in the same reference that the woman is thinking in. She's wanting to create a relationship. She wants to make sure that you like her so that, you know, later on, if you have another incident to have a negotiation with her, that it's going to be a friendly one. And a man is more so concerned about what the outcome of this negotiation.
Peter (00:33:10):
You made a really good point, which is it's not right or wrong. It's just different. And like, there's, you hear so much in our culture today of how one or the other things, the other one is wrong because you know, she just doesn't get it.
Jan (00:33:25):
It's not, it would be, it starts off in empathy, goes in empathy. You know, girls are taught to, you know, be nice, then play with other girls and guys are taught to run faster and win this race. So it's the way that we're, we're, we're kind of cultured when we're little children and you know, girls are treated softer and then than boys are, and men or guys are like, when the game's over the game's over. And it's sort of another game is who can climb faster, who can run faster. And, and a girl, the girls are like, would be, she liked me and my, the prettiest one at that 40. So girls are more with relationship building and guys are more with achievement and that's just, it ends up being that way when we're older people too. So people need to understand that about each other.
Jan (00:34:06):
It's not that one is right and one is wrong. It's just in the way that we're socialized as children. And the funny thing is, I'm sorry, but when, when children are three years old, that's when you see most of the biggest differences, because at three years old, everything that comes out of a little girl's mouth is a word it's three, it's just word, word, word, word, but a little fellow at three 60% of the information that comes out of his mouth is a word. And the other 40%, those are those little sounds like, you know, those little sounds. And the funny thing is that those sounds stay with men till they're 90 and 95 years old, because I asked my husband, you still do it. Yes. Because if I ask my husband, I'll say, do you like this dress? He never can just say, yes, he'll go. Yeah, Janet looks good on you. They just got to make it. So it's so funny that, you know, men and women are like that. And then it says on, on an average day that men speak 11,000 words and women speak 25,000 words. Did you know that theater
Peter (00:35:06):
Numbers? But I believe it.
Jan (00:35:08):
Yeah. But a lot of it is the way that we construct our Senate, men will more so make a declarative statement. A man would say, that's a nice core. Oftentimes a woman makes a declarative statement and sometimes we'll put an add in on that. They tag along on that same way. So I might say that's a nice car, isn't it? So, because of all these tag endings, we've put on sentences. Sometimes we ended up having 25,000 words in a day. So that's the cause of it.
Peter (00:35:35):
Isn't it part is the, is the connection part. Like I want to connect with you on isn't that a nice car, as opposed to a man, just like words,
Jan (00:35:43):
Making sure that we have some ports that we agree on in our conversation. So yeah, it's been a study. It's been a say, I'm so glad that I researched it when I was in school. And when, when the professor was talking about body language, at that time I was dating someone. And my first question to him was so when this man tells me, he loves me, I can figure out if he, if he's telling the truth, not, and my professor had said yet, so then I thought to myself, shoot, I need to learn this stuff because, you know, I can tell if all my boyfriends, the rest of my life was going to be telling me the truth or telling me a lot.
Jan (00:36:20):
He has a superpower. And so I started researching it and I was having fun. I was using it on everyone who I knew. And then from there I got more interested and more interested in that's all. So that's why when I, when I talk with young college students or maybe in graduate school or their last years of college, I say, you know, if you're researching something and you're finding it so, so interesting, you can make it be almost a career for you if you know how to just kind of approach it. And you know, it's an interesting science. So I tell them, get interested in so many things, you know, where you're in college, because something in the end can make a wonderful living for you and a good life for you too.
Peter (00:36:57):
Uh, yeah. I'm so glad you did, because this is all, you know, incredibly mind blowing stuff. So let's dive into the, the mating gestures, if you will. And how do you know if somebody, if they say, I love you, how do you know if they are,
Jan (00:37:10):
Yeah. You know, they telling the truth, or how do you tell that they're attracted to you? One of the books that I wrote, you know, I wrote the five books. So one is, let me see your body talk in that body language, job, interview, and presentation skills. One is strictly business, body language. And that negotiating one is judge. The jury in that courtroom body language. One is called poker face is the body language of poker players. But one of my books is called freeway of love. And it's nonverbal courtship gestures that men would maybe do or science that ladies do that say, wow, I think you're really, really nice looking. And it's kind of, it's kind of comical, but one of the very first gestures that a guy does when we find someone that he feels is attractive, a guy will always adjust his socks for pull up his socks.
Jan (00:37:57):
When he is around someone who makes him nervous or that he feels he wants to talk with what is too nervous to approach that person. And you know where that goes. You remember me saying this because it goes back to the old thing where you might have one young man state or another young man who would say, you need to see this girl, she'll knock your socks off and what it is. It's a nervousness gesture, Peter, that maybe we'll go to the feet and maybe tie in and retire the shoe. Because in days of old, at, at weddings behind the wedding cores, it was shoes that were originally hung behind wedding cores. And so that's why even for a woman, the main, the first gesture that a woman does is that she causes her leg towards the person she's attracted to. And then she begins to dangle her shoes. So for men and women, the major gestures associated with courtship have to do with feet. And you have these, you know, these old things with foot fetishes, or are you have the, it goes back to Cinderella effect and does the shoe fit. So that's where all of that goes back to where the male would maybe pull up the sock or the lady would maybe dangle the shoe is big, big courtship, just cause I'm sure you pulled up your socks at times. Have you
Peter (00:39:10):
First the, the sayings or the, the,
Jan (00:39:13):
I wonder maybe the thing, because even when I was researching this in, in, in my book, I have a chapter on the history of shoes and in the history of how shoes were, you know, came into this romantic thing. But even in some countries years ago, a red shoe with put on the doorstep of a home where there was a single woman in that home who was ready to date. I had read that in, in some countries, a shoe was putting the cement of the steps. I mean, there was, there's all kinds of things about shoes that had to do with courtship and lovers and, and in the Asian cultures, they would bind the feet of women to make the feet smaller because a smaller foot was more attractive to the men. And sometimes the foot was so small and the shoe that they got was so small that they would later put the shoe in a glass, uh, carriage. And that was placed on a, a beautiful table in the living room of that family. If you go back to reading some Asian stories about, about the shoes and the culture and how the feet were binded with ribbons to keep the foot really small and not growing too much so that the foot will look dainty when she was dancing. And so, but that's maybe where some of this all started off.
Peter (00:40:31):
Huh? I remember seeing that as a kid, we went to a museum and saw the shoes and they were tiny. Like, I couldn't believe it
Jan (00:40:37):
We're so restricted. That's what it was. He has restricted the growth. I've never really seen one except in pictures, but I wish I've ever seen one in person, but why, why I'm saying this to you now, it's making you recall why that was done. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's interesting to hear.
Peter (00:40:56):
Um, alright, so let's keep going. Let's keep going with the, uh, with the courtship stuff. So what else?
Jan (00:41:00):
Okay. So for a guy, you know, he'll, um, those guys praying P R E N, then we'll come into the room and maybe adjust the hair. And it's almost as if they're thinking, well, do I look good enough for you adjusting the cuff of a shirt too? You know how a guy will pull on the cups and pull them out of his jacket for a bit. That is a big courtship gesture. Um, standing with the thumbs tucked inside the belt and the fingers, you know, kind of spread around the zipper area, so to speak, you know,
Peter (00:41:31):
Thinks that he's going to do maybe into a room. Right. What about when or, or is that something that he'll do once he's engaged in conversation with
Jan (00:41:39):
It could do it once he's engaged in conversation could do it from maybe across the room if he's watching her eyes and when he finds attractive, maybe in conversation with the girl, he could, um, take a glass and maybe holding onto a beer can or glass. And while he's talking with her conduct, slightly squeezing on the property lending on the capital, squeezing, again, it is a gesture that says, I'd like to squeeze you baby. So you may want to wipe the Kansas people. You have conversations with ladies, do it too. You know, putting the finger around the rim of the glass and rubbing it kind of as a sexual connotation to, or playing with the STEM of a wineglass can give you a sexual connotation to, and, um, you know, constantly adjusting the clothing or, and, and, and we tend to spread out more when we feel that someone is looking at us, you know, we took the tummy in, it's kind of like a mating stance that we take.
Jan (00:42:32):
When we see someone from across the room, we think could be maybe eyeing us. And oftentimes couple do couples do. What's called a sexual peekaboo. If I'm sitting at a table and I'm looking at a menu and I notice you at another table by yourself, and you're looking at a manual, I'll look down and then I'll look up and then I'll look down again. It's kind of a sexual I peekaboo that we do. When we find someone quite interesting to us women, you know, most men think that when a woman touches her hair, she might find someone's attractive, but that's not the first gesture a lady does. A lady does three things before she touches her hair. The very first thing a lady does, a lady will cross her leg towards the person she finds is most attractive. So we cross towards people. We like, and away from people we don't like.
Jan (00:43:19):
And then once she sees you and maybe she finds it, you're watching her a woman will then slowly, slowly kick the leg. You know, a slow kick is kind of a sexual kick because it's done in a rhythm. It can't be a quick kick. Oh, a fast kick is an impatience kit. So it has to be really slow with the rhythm. And then she'll start to dangle the shoe. And then after she's dangled the shoe, that's when she starts to touch the hair. And the more that a girl arranges the hair, the more self conscious she is about maybe someone watching her and finding her attractive. So when I teach this yet, keep going.
Peter (00:43:54):
I was going to say, as a guy that quit kicking is a little, yeah, we get a little defensive around quick kicking women. So
Jan (00:44:00):
Yes is an evasion gesture. So when I train ladies, I say, you know, in a business meeting, you can not, you can not touch your hair because if the touching of the hair is a courtship gesture, if you're doing it too much during a business meeting, it's gonna, it's gonna lower, lower. Every expectation you've said in all of the series is that you've laid down on the table in the meeting. So I tell ladies, you cannot do that in your, when some ladies turn their hair over and then turn it back, you cannot do that in a serious business meeting. It's too much a playful gesture and too much of a gesture that says, do I look good enough for you? And then after that, you know, maybe we even, when a lady crosses her legs and takes your hands and you know, with clasp your hands together and hold onto her knee, her cross knee, can you picture what I'm saying? Yeah. Clasping the hands. And they note would that suggest, that says, you know, it says I'm going to be permitted proper. Now I'll, I'd like to hold onto you, but I'll hold onto myself. So ladies do that. Oftentimes when they're in the presence of someone who they find attractive or someone who they would want to be attracted to them, I mean, there are so many, I even studied shoes, Peter, that you can look at someone's shoes, and it's going to tell you what kind of lover they would be from a fly
Peter (00:45:16):
Out there and not deliver. So what, how do you know?
Jan (00:45:20):
Gosh, I don't know, but you know, I'm trying to think of what I have in the book, but I know the more tied up the shoe is the more prim and proper and tied up the person is. And I know that, um, women who wear shoes with strategically open areas may sometimes wear undergarments with strategically open areas. That's a good one. Isn't it just said so many things
Peter (00:45:47):
I wear flip flops. Does that mean I wear a thong?
Jan (00:45:50):
No, that would be a good one. I would go good. I think if they wear flip flops, they're easy. They're casual, a casual lover, you know, not too many complications in their life and in their love life, either things like that is what it says. It's a fun board of the book to have the body language
Peter (00:46:07):
Reality going on that most people just know the bare minimum on this is so interesting.
Jan (00:46:14):
Um, yeah.
Peter (00:46:16):
Dealing with like a lot of the, a lot of the gestures that you're mentioning that are, um, under the deception umbrella, if you will, are. So, because somebody feels self conscious about, do they know that I'm lying or they're trying to conscious there? What about when you're dealing with
Jan (00:46:34):
Yeah. Narcissist or sociopath? Do they have the same kinds of things or no, they, they they're. So they're so believing their own lie that they, they come across pretty credible, that they believe their lie goes. I was watching the guy in Colorado. I think it was Colorado who said that his wife and two children disappeared around Thanksgiving and yeah. And he didn't know, but come to find out, you know, now he's, they haven't may have caught him for this and all the lies that he did. But the moment that he said, if you look at him carefully, the way that his body language was, he was holding, he had his arms crossed in front of his body and he was holding onto his upper arm between the shoulder and the elbow holding on there. And he was swinging back and forth and just holding onto himself and saying, I want them back.
Jan (00:47:21):
I just want my family back. I mean, nothing with pleading and nothing with crying in the face, just kind of smug and holding himself. Right. Then, you know, when he was talking, I just kind of felt in an easiness. And I knew that this young man was probably involved in the missing children and, and with the Y cause think what a liar is thinking when they're talking with you, they're trying to think of their lie. Plus they're trying to gauge your body language to see if you're believing what they are telling you. So just seeing how busy their mind is, they're trying to think of their lie. And then they're trying to see, well, is this person believing what I'm saying? But when you're listening to someone's story, you can even listen to the formation of the story to see if it's deception or if it's honestly, because every story that we've ever told or heard is made up of three basic ports, every story has an introduction where I might say to you, let me tell you what happened.
Jan (00:48:14):
Every story has a body where I'd give you the facts. And every story has a summary. And the summary is usually how you felt. You might say why I had such a good time. I'm so glad that I did go there. So if it's a true story, you get equal time spent to the introduction to the body and the summary. And when it's true, your facts are not given to you in chronological order. And when it's true in your summary area, you'll get a number of emotional verbs. Like they might say I was so afraid. I was just so afraid to be there. So you could almost feel that they were there when it's a fabricated story. It's a really short introduction. It's a really short closure, but it's a huge body. And the facts are true too. Chronologically exact. They might say at five 32, I exited Walmart at five 45.
Jan (00:49:03):
I felt a hit on my head. And also when it's fabricated in the summary area, you will not get emotional verbs. They might say I had to run for, I had to, I had to run about two miles that, you know, they weren't really there. So they sort of catch someone in a lie. You have to listen to the story in its entirety, and then you have to talk about something else and then come back to them and say, so tell me exactly what happened again. And when they start telling you the story, though, you have to be prepared to ask them a question from something at the end of the story at the very beginning. So, so you can't, when someone's talking to you and you say, and you think yourself, Oh, I think they're lying. Don't stop them right there. Just, just let them go.
Jan (00:49:41):
Let them go. And then listen to the story and then talk about something else. And they'd come back and make them start telling you the story again, because they have it memorized too chronologically exact. So if you get them out of sequence, they'll know that you caught them in their life. You say, but if someone's story is true, you can ask them something from the ending at the beginning. Cause they it's true. They were there. So they could tell you anything and whatever audit is presented to them or ask of them. So, so, so that not only do you watch the body language, but you also look to the formation of the story when someone's telling you something to see if they're being deceptive with you.
Peter (00:50:18):
Well, and you've also talked about the inflection of their voice and the emotional towns. Do you, do you consult on that as well? Voice? I mean, obviously we talked about the nonverbal, but about the verbal.
Jan (00:50:28):
Yes. Typically when someone is stressed and strained in lying to you, the vocal chords get really tight and the voice gets extremely high. So when people lie, the voices high, when people are afraid, the voice gets low. So even on the phone with someone, you could kind of figure out if they're telling you the truth or not, by listening to the level of the voice. So it is hard to see the body language, you know, when they're on the phone, but even in teleconferencing now, which is wonderful, that you can see someone, you know, in a meeting room and kind of figure out if they're telling you the truth or not by watching the body language, but also listening to the voice. And then one thing we didn't even touch on was, you know, just a handshake in itself that, you know, for listeners and people to know that the best kind of handshake is the vertical handshake, the straight up and down, because it allows each party to have a part in the conversation.
Jan (00:51:16):
When someone comes to shake your hand and their Palm is facing downward and they hold onto your hand, that way that's an indicator that they want to control you. So when their hand is facing downward, they're saying whatever we decide here, I want to have the final say. So we have a hand would come to you and the Palm is facing upward. It means that they're more submissive to you and they're thinking whatever you decide that is perfectly okay with me. But you know, I often advise people and think about it, be to when someone comes to shake your hand and other time. And let's say that their hand is facing downward. You may want to take it that way, but make sure by the end of the handshake that you get the hands that they're vertical up and down, because when it's an up and down handshake, a vertical handshake, it means that each party has a 50, 50 chance in getting a time to speak
Peter (00:52:03):
[inaudible]
Jan (00:52:05):
And shakes. W was that the correct number of pumps in a handshake is three.
Peter (00:52:13):
I didn't, but I, I know the social awkwardness that comes when you're, sometimes people don't want to go. And you're like, give me my hand. There's some really fascinating and hilarious videos online of presidential meetings and photo ops where, you know, they're shaking hands. And of course they have to pop, you know, a million times just cause there's so many cameras, but, but the, but the, the proverbial arm wrestle that goes back and forth between who's on top. And then there's a way you can touch the other guy's shoulder. And then he's like a little wrestling match. It's so funny to see.
Jan (00:52:48):
Yeah. And too often people say to me, what about those who hurt you when they shake your hand? There is no sense that someone would hurt you. Peter. I think people who tend to want to hurt you and squeeze your hand. I think oftentimes they're lacking in self esteem and they think that if they seem more powerful and hurtful to you in the handshake that you think that they're more powerful and in themselves, but there's no sense that someone does that. And in too, every time you have a meeting with someone, you get two opportunities for handshakes and entrance handshake and an exit handshake. So, you know, the first one was not to your liking. Then during the meeting by golly, you don't make sure you say to yourself that by the time I leave this person, I'm going to give them a really good, good handshake, because you never want someone to think that you can not give a good handshake.
Jan (00:53:32):
And the week, the week, the handshake, you know, the, we hand shake where they just catch the fingers. That's more used in it. If someone has to use it, it's using a social setting, only, not in a business meeting because it goes back to where let's say you met me and you would just catch my fingers. And you'd gone to be in my hand over and you'd want to kiss the top of my hand. That's what it comes back to when people would just get your fingers. So when someone does that, to me, I'm thinking, are they going to kiss me? Or what are they doing with me? Why they shaking my hand this way? But that's usually what it means. Sometimes someone liking in self esteem, but to, you know, I get some States where men are really, really courteous and maybe their mothers taught them. You know, don't shake a woman's hand real hard, but I think, and you know, they're not doing it to be ugly. They're just doing it because their mother taught them that. But I think nowadays, any woman in business wants to feel equal to that person. So a woman also wants an a, you know, a good handshake, a good firm handshake.
Peter (00:54:28):
Yes, for sure. I mean, sometimes it's, it's super awkward when you miss grab somebody, if you know, you're in a social setting and there's multiple people around and you're doing quick handshakes and you end up catching it, especially a guy on guy type of handshake, how do you recover from something like that?
Jan (00:54:44):
Well, often times I'll say, I don't think we got a good handshake. Let's try this again. I'll say that if it's, if it's worth it, if it's worth it, you know, if it's someone that maybe you think, you know, it's just a cousin of a cousin, cousin, maybe you'd never see it again. And it's too much trouble. But if it's someone in a business setting where, you know, you will negotiate with them or maybe have further meetings with them, I maybe would do it again. And just jokingly say, I don't think we got that. Right. Let's try it again. Yeah. You know, just in case. Cause you never want them to think. You don't know how to shake hands. Yes.
Peter (00:55:17):
All right. Can I, can I put you on the spot a little bit? Yes. Ask me, I have a, I have two, two truths and a lie to share. I'll share them with you and see if you can tell me which one is the lie. Okay. Can we try that? Let's try it. Alright, so I'm going to just go through the three of them. The first one is I've been conned out of a hundred thousand dollars. The second one is I drove a formula, one race car. And the third one is I had a supermodel as a client.
Jan (00:55:51):
Okay. Take a deep breath and just say them to me again.
Peter (00:55:56):
I got conned out of a hundred thousand dollars. I drove a formula, one race car. I had a supermodel as a client.
Jan (00:56:06):
I think that maybe your lie is C a was your lie.
Peter (00:56:15):
I am, but I did actually have a supermodel as a client. Um, it's uh, I drove a formula, one race car.
Jan (00:56:22):
What did you drive instead? You drove something though.
Peter (00:56:25):
Uh, I have driven other, uh, no, like, you know, race cars on a racetrack. It's something I want to do, but it's not something that I've done. Um,
Jan (00:56:35):
Oh yeah. All I look, I didn't catch you, but were you rubbing your nose when you said the third one?
Peter (00:56:42):
Uh, you know what? I wasn't even thinking about it. I probably was.
Jan (00:56:45):
You probably work with sometimes, you know, I mean, of course, if I could have seen you in, Burston doing it, would've been much easier, but your point was about the same each time
Peter (00:56:54):
You've taught me. Well, I mean, I was, I was being,
Jan (00:56:56):
I never even invoiced never went higher on a, B or C, so I didn't know exactly which one I was just kind of basing it there on what I thought would be the less obvious thing that you would have done. But that is so wonderful. If you had a supermodel as a client,
Peter (00:57:11):
It was wonderful. It was fun. Um, well, and what part of the reason why I was asking about the associated stuff is cause I did get conned and I like aside from the, the tragedy of, of getting, you know, con at all that money was, um, I was just so fascinated that somebody could look me in the eye and be so believable. And one of the things that, that, um, really was kinda blew my mind was when I got to the point where I was like, Oh, I think she screwed me over. I called her up and I wrote down all these different notes and then flew down because I had just moved. So I flew back to where I used to live, to confront her. And I had this whole notebook of all these different things that she told me and my entire intention, I'm going to catch her in a lie. And I was fascinated at her ability to remember all of the details. I was like, wow, you are either you're telling the truth. And this is the craziest like story I've ever heard or you're one of the best liars I've ever met. And it turned out that she was a con artist and had a record in other parts of the country. And wow,
Jan (00:58:12):
I know I got caught. I got caught. I got caught one time too. But you know, people who believe in themselves so much and believe their lives, I mean, think of Casey Anthony in, at gull, in Orlando. So they do hit the baby missing for 31 days. We all knew she was lying, which she didn't think that we all knew she was lying. Because I mean, even when she took the police officers into the Orlando Disney world, you remember she took our Disneyland Disney world, I think, and was going to show them her desk. And she took them, you know, they got through the security and they went down the hall, they got closer and closer, closer. And then when they get to this room, then she turned around and said, you know, I never worked here. You know, she just said board someone's past.
Jan (00:58:51):
But I mean to did take police officers there. And then the two, the thing is that when they lie and they see they're almost caught, or then, then they, their line goes into another bigger circle from that lie where they have a little piece of that. And that could kind of be true. And then they add, it's kind of like a circular, circular, circular effect. It goes on and on, but it's like OJ Simpson tube. They believed that what they did was needed to be done. So they believed there's a righteousness in what they have done. I, yeah. What bought Peter? I'd like to know more about that story. That's interesting. Your story. I'm saying, I know people,
Peter (00:59:28):
It's a, at least a two to three drink story.
Jan (00:59:32):
Uh, well, when I see you, we need to do this two to three drinks. That would be an interesting story. And maybe we could have figured out how we could have caught her in the beginning, but it, but it's all the same way. You know, we, we trust people and we think of the goodness in others and we think surely, no, one's going to do that to us, but everybody's out, I guess, you know, for themselves in some way, those people who are really deceivers like that, and they're gonna, you know, be nice and kind, and then you to make the they're nice and come to find out something's wrong with the whole situation.
Peter (01:00:02):
Oh shit. It was incredible without getting too much into it. She, you know, I took my infant daughter to go see, you know, the stables and the horses and you know, and I did a lot of this is the other thing is I did a lot of background check. I checked references. I, uh, asked other people in the community. Like I checked her financials. Like I did a lot of homework. Uh,
Jan (01:00:23):
That's good that you did that. Cause Mo a lot of us don't do that when you get up in business with people and then find out later.
Peter (01:00:30):
Well, my, the two, I had two big mistakes. The first one was I did a background search on her, but I only did it statewide. Had I done national, I would have seen the other bounce checks and the other things that she had done. Uh, and then the other thing was is I, I, at the time I was doing a lot of real estate when you buy and sell houses, of course you have a central public, uh, record of title. Whereas in the equestrian industry, you don't, you just, you have a piece of paper that says, Hey, I have this, this, this title is my horse, but I can just print out a news piece of paper. And if I'm dishonest saying, that's my horse and here's the paper to prove it, but there's no central centralized livestock. Yeah,
Jan (01:01:08):
Yeah, yeah. But knowing, knowing some things about body language now, like you do know the next time you're in a meeting with someone, I mean, you could, you know, think about, you know, story formation because that's always a good thing for people to think about is how they're giving you their story. And then also look at their body language while they're drunk, but still they will come across as so believable because they believe in what they're saying to you. And they have a goal in mind is to make money off of you or from you as something of that store. So you'll have to, I mean, really watch them for a while and, and listen to their stories and watch the body language when you're in conversation with them too.
Peter (01:01:46):
The one thing that you mentioned in this call that would have been a key for me was that she was very, she spent a lot of time on the body, not on the intro, not on the, on the, uh, conclusion, the body of chronological, uh, fact-based stuff and not inflection of emotion or whatever, until I started to challenge her, then she got defensive and yeah, like overwhelmingly came back and said, I was this, that or whatever. And that to me at the time,
Jan (01:02:12):
Yeah, yeah. We all get caught. We all get caught. So, um, it's just to be wiser and sometimes just be more careful with some of the people get mixed up with, but I think some knowing some of the things about body language could help someone so tremendously when they're in, you know, deciding if they're going to take a partner in a business or deciding if they want to sign a contract with someone else to think about it and also bring another person in who can watch the behavior while the conversation is going on, because that's how we do it in the courtroom. You know, we have a possible jury pool, each juror is numbered and I have a seat chart. And so if the attorney is asking a question of number 32, I can make notes. And I can say, well, you know, he was at, you know, he asked me and I can make all these notes that I want in her square.
Jan (01:02:59):
And then later on the afternoon, when the attorney comes to meet with me and he'll say, well, Jan, what do you think about number 32 should do you think she'd be a good, good juror for us? And I'd say, no, she hates you. If you cause sometimes when he's asking him a question, he can be watching her body language, but I can be watching it. So that's what we do as jury consultants is sit in there and watch the body language of the prospective jurors to see if perhaps we want them on that trial or not.
Peter (01:03:23):
So interesting. Have you ever been a, um, ex um, what do they call it? An expert witness.
Jan (01:03:28):
So I've been asked many, many times, but I don't want to, because they would get into my life. You know, they'd say, well in high school or maybe you made a C in English, so why should we think that you're a good speaker now? Something, whatever it would be, no, I just never wanted to put myself in that situation. But oftentimes when a crime does occur, they will send me the, the defendant's video testimony or they'll send me anything, a questioning session. And then I can watch it, watch it, watch it here on my screen. And I can make notes that he's being deceptive here. He's being deceptive here. He's being deceptive here. And I can send that to the attorney. That's how we do it. And then their attorney decides how much further you was to ask about certain questions. So that's mainly how we do it, or I've trained some witnesses to, before who I feel I would never train someone who I thought was guilty, but if I feel someone is innocent in their own trial and maybe their attorney hires me to help them to come across as more believable while they're testifying, that's one thing that we can also help with.
Jan (01:04:32):
I've helped people do that.
Peter (01:04:35):
Yeah. Go ahead and tell me, I was just, I was just going to say a w like with Margaret Thatcher, I remember seeing videos of her where her voice, you know, she would intentionally come in and speak lower. Um, but there were times where she was either off camera or whatever, and you could hear her natural voice and it was, you know, like an octave higher that just didn't resonate as well. It didn't, it wasn't as grounded, you know, less.
Jan (01:05:00):
Yeah. It's one of the case I was thinking of was, uh, a man had come into this auto body shop and he was looking for someone else because the first man who worked at the body shop and I guess the man had done him wrong. And so he was wanting to just to hurt this man. So a young guy is sitting at the desk is the receptionist guy in the body shop. And there's a camera behind his head, the one at the desk. And you can see the guy coming to the, coming to the office and he's, he's threatening. And he's saying, where is such and such? Because when I get him, you know, it's not going to be a pretty sight. And then he's looking at this young guy at the desk and he said, he said, you probably lied to me. I should come back and maybe destroy you.
Jan (01:05:40):
And so then, then the guy who had burst in later on, you know, went back through the door and was going to leave within turns around. And the guide, the desk thinks that maybe this guy's going to hurt him. He pulls out a gun and he kills this guy, this guy who had entered. So there's a video camera on the top of this young man at the desk, but it doesn't have sound. So the attorney representing the young man had hard a lip reader to see if they could see if they thought that this guy was threatening enough that justified this young man shooting this guy, but the Liberty to couldn't see their lips moving that much. So then that's when they hired me to look at the body language of the intruder to see if I thought that his body language was threatening. So I just don't want to come out and say, yes, his body language is threatening.
Jan (01:06:30):
What I had to do to justify it. In my mind, I made a list of all the threatening body language, gestures that I knew. And I made a list of all the nonthreatening body language, gestures that I knew. And then I went through and I looked at the video and I would check if I saw any of the threatening ones. I checked those, but I did see some nonthreatening ones too. And I checked those. And then I went to meet with the attorneys. And I told him that this, these are my findings. There are some gestures that show certainly yes, or threatening, but there are certainly some that are nonthreatening. Cause I don't want them to base their whole case on what I would have seen from this video that doesn't have sound. And I just would've seen the body language, but it was a good thought. And so they took whatever information I had and they went to trial with that.
Peter (01:07:11):
Wow. That's interesting. I mean, well, and also the context matters too, because threatening to what may you know, maybe not necessarily the guy that ended up shooting him, it could have been.
Jan (01:07:21):
Yeah, he shouldn't have, yeah. He shouldn't have done that, you know? Yeah. But it's funny in the way. And they had seen me on television and then that's when they thought, well, it let's call Jane and see what she thinks about this cake. It's a good way to use what, you know what I know. And the funny thing, Peter is this, I was just trying to figure out that college boyfriend to see if he liked me and that it has come to murder trials. And here we are. And here we are, are doing the president's body language.
Peter (01:07:47):
Amazing. Well, before we, uh, before we wrap this up, I'm curious to know we started the call with you saying maybe you could tell me a little bit about, uh, whether or not I'm sitting forward or sending back whatever, what
Jan (01:07:57):
Now you're sitting bar, where do you have a headset or
Peter (01:08:00):
No, I don't, but I have a mic that I'm like,
Jan (01:08:03):
You have a mic in front of you. Oh yeah. You're sitting forward. Your hands are Britten. Let me see how your feet are. Your feet might have been feet probably pushed underneath your chair a little bit. Yeah. You're sitting forward. Yeah. I see. I see you right there.
Peter (01:08:16):
So for those, if it wasn't clear early, I just want to let people know. Normally I do a video call and just publish the audio for the podcast. But this one, we're just doing a phone call. So Jan can't see me at all just to make sure that that was clear. Well, Jan, this is as always fascinating. Interesting. I do still remember when we chatted for a little bit, after one of your talks, you analyze my handwriting. That's a whole nother thing. Didn't even touch
Jan (01:08:40):
Other thing. Yeah. I thought about that too. We can do that sometimes, but Peter, I think that even in explaining it the way that you and I explained this session, just now that someone just hearing it, could, I hope get the message taped and then you buy you taping this way. Someone can listen to it and maybe slow it down and listen to it again and again. And then, you know, cause I know it gets complicated when I talk about the right brain, the left brain, the right hand, the left hand. But if you slow it down and you play it and you listen to it in detail and make notes, they would get the message of everything. I think that we spoke about today.
Peter (01:09:15):
Definitely. I thought about that, you know, before we actually spoke, to be honest, like, you know, it'd be great to do a video call with a body when we get to expert. Cause we could actually visually, but I think you're right. If we had done that there, at least for me, I probably would have not explained it as clearly. Cause I could see it, but somebody was so I'm actually glad that we did it instead.
Jan (01:09:34):
Well, I'm happy to, I'm happy to. Yeah.
Peter (01:09:37):
Very good. Well Jan, thank you so much for your time. This is a very, very fascinating and interesting conversation. I look forward to, uh, to following it up and having another conversation too about it.
Jan (01:09:49):
I look, let's do it again. Peter. I do too. Have a good day. It was wonderful talking with you and I can't wait to see you again either. Fantastic.
Peter (01:09:56):
Well actually real quick, if somebody is interested, um, to find out, know more about you or, or, or, you know, get in touch with you, where could they go to do that?
Jan (01:10:04):
Well, my website is just, my name is Jan Hargrave, H a R G R a B e.com. And my email address is jan@janhargrave.com.
Peter (01:10:17):
Perfect. Again, appreciate it.
Jan (01:10:20):
Thank you so much, Peter. Have a good day. You too. Take care. Bye bye. Bye bye.